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Debate about why Order is how it is.

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Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#491 » Mon May 25, 2020 7:45 pm

Jeliel80 wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 7:02 pm

But don't worry, we'll go destro like everybody else did, let's see how long the server lasts. :D
This. Almost every new player I know with competitive MMO background that started on Order has rerolled Destro.

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Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#492 » Mon May 25, 2020 8:37 pm

how we will get renown if we all roll destro? self pump morales where debated from begin byt only kobs/sm got huge nerfs. and ppl wonder why destro has more tanks.
in reality destro has more income heals zealot +25%
and rp + kobs + chosen - 25% heal debuff. 40 -25=15% reality ( offc if u have rp in party and kobs ;-) )
wp need use tactic stand in fire to proc it
sm need sacrefice tactic slot ( byt chosen also has +15 % inc heals and druchari +10% inc heals) its not my fault sm got his heal tactic around midle game while druchari at t1 (8lvl?)

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Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#493 » Mon May 25, 2020 8:44 pm

emiliorv wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 7:19 am
Omegus wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 11:59 pm
Drewsephy wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 7:47 pm
Yes order is great at defending forts.... who cares.
Almost everybody when not spending the hour in the city every 1-2 days. The majority of the time is spent fighting over keeps and forts, meaning the majority of the time destro are having a **** time. Not everyone is RR70 and in full invader ready to farm Sovereign.
I wonder why this kind of topics come up after city was implemented and no one said anything when forts was "endgame content"...everything was fine when you had the advantage getting endgame gear...
Destro needs to stop peddling the completely unsubstantiated lie that Order somehow has an advantage in ORvR. Destro still has the class advantage, it's just not a cakewalk for you.

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Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#494 » Mon May 25, 2020 8:53 pm

Omegus wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 4:31 pm
SW: bring an Assault Shadow Warrior. They are terrifying when played properly, output silly amounts of ST damage.
IBs: absolutely fine. almost on-demand outgoing heal debuff, knockdowns, a good armour debuff. A great option for the melee train guards due to the buffs they throw out.
Engi: no arguments here. One if your WB wants to magnet is fine, but you need to be able to drop whatever gets pulled in.
WH: you bring it for the morale drain
AM: Yes there are plenty of pooly specced AMs out there, but that doesn't mean the class is bad. I remember Bombling lamenting that they couldn't find any morale pump AMs for one city siege WB... plenty of AMs, just none willing to respec. This is a player issue, not a class issue.
No offense but you have no idea what you're talking about and it's clear you've never played Order to even a medium rank.

SW: MSH does similar ST damage but it also has tons more survivability, mobility, AOE, CC and utility.

IB: BGs outgoing debuff actually is spammable, not "almost on-demand." BGs have a longer duration KB if they're shield spec. A lot of IB buffs do not stack, and while useful, are not as good as you seem think they are. IB have no real AOE either unlike the BG.

WH: WE has the same Morale drain, only its compounded with all of Destros morale builders and drains which were never mirrored for some reason, despite Zealots/MSH/Shaman/Marauders/BOs outright stealing abilities and tactics from their Order counterparts with nothing granted in return

AM: AM morale builder is trash compared to the Shaman's. Unless you stack -build time to unreasonable levels and sacrifice literally all your movement and action to pump, and have another AM to pump with you, this morale yields almost nothing for a warband except in extremely rare cases or situations where you have 20-30 seconds of idle time *in combat.* AM morale builder also requires spec points, every single Shaman will have the option to go pump.
Greenbeast wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 5:53 pm
You've forgotten 30% self healing buff on WP and 15% healing buff on the kotbs and the fact that you can run 15% outgoing heall debuff on Kotbs. So no a single Chosen aura is t disabling your potential healing.
As for M2 every tank that uses M2 can't bomb you. Since good and not Warbands run 2h tanks they will be out of sinc or a warband must wait for them. Most of them will use raze that can be interrupted or syphoned.
In 2018-2019 any destro warband that would go out without a dps zealot and marauder would have been burned to ashes with morale drop of 7 bws. I haven't seen you complaining. You've just played the meta with overstacking bws and destruction was forced to get an unpopular DPS zealot and bring a couple of marauders to be able to compete.
You need an AM. It's hard to find but it's meta.
It's 20% and requires a defense. So it typically won't be up in the first few seconds of engage unless you sacrifice positioning. Bad Destro will trigger WP defenses with no payoff. Better to avoid hitting WP unless you intend to train them and set them back. Likewise heal output isn't the only limiting factor in WP/DOK heals, and both have over 5-6 tactics that boost survivability/healing/regen to some degree. Exalted Defenses does not stand out at all other than the "high" people get from seeing big silly numbers.

Focused Mending requires you slot a garbage, nerfed aura and a tactic slot. Decent, but not exceptional.

Knight outgoing heal is a ghetto version of Chosen debuff. Healers are rarely clumped up in a 30 foot range but AOE targets are by definition clumped up in a Chosen's 25% debuff range. Knight debuff is just a ghetto version of BG debuff and unlike Destro, Order does not have an M2 that removes 90-95% of all heal debuffs as well as almost all DoTs and debuffs from all opposing DPS. Also unlike Destro, Order does not have a covenant that constantly spams a curse that masks heal debuffs. Nor does it have a outgoing heal debuff proc on a viable/meta DPS class.

If you're suggesting pump AMs, it's clear you've never played Order to any respectable level. Unlike Shaman, AM have to plant (as the lowest survivability class in the game) and spam a 2s cast that will just overheal someone 90% of the time. It's not good for morale bombing at all unlike the Sham version which can get multiple people to M2 in less than 10 seconds.

As for the much vaunted "BW bomb" rSH with Shaman can get to m2/m3/m4 faster while kiting BWs to death. Marauders can likewise drop 1200 morales, where 2-3 Maras is enough to perma lock all said BWs at 0 morale. This is the real, actual l2p issue. Wizard M2 bomb was never a real balance issue anywhere and merely illustrates Destro entitlement and bad theorycrafting.

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Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#495 » Mon May 25, 2020 9:38 pm

Vayra wrote:
Sat May 16, 2020 2:36 pm

The problem order has is that almost half their roster is underperforming, while a good chunk of the other half is overperforming. BWs > Sorcs, WPs > DoKs (in terms of healing), RPs have better survivability than Zealots , KotBS provides better buffs than Chosen. So the balance is there, order players just aren't playing enough of the stronger classes. They'd rather play the weak engineers or SWs instead of BWs, Slayers or WLs.

While destro has more options, the best possible setup for a wb is still on Order side.
BW >Sorc in AOE, sorc > BW in single target. its different is all really. BW is better at defending, keeps, forts. Melee pile is better for city, which is what the devs are centering the game around.

WP > DoK healing. Both are great healers. Dok beat WP as melee. WP may be a slightly better healer.

RP = Zelot. many covered this and it came out about even.

KotBS < chosen. What auras does the kotBS have that are better? They are all the same except one that is better on the chosen. slow down vs setback reduction. The chosen has much better offence while the KotBS is defense. In a WB situation on a melee train the chosen is more effective.

Destros excuses are tired. Destro wins about 65% of cities. The excuses that you are more organized are patently false. We have watched your city streams from top WBs. You have control of the moral game and dont need to be as organized on the rest. Even most of the destro here finally admit that pug vs pug destro is much easier and has an advantage. This advantage is just growing as destro gears in Sov gear considerably faster than order now.

If you want to argue that its only in cities then the Devs need to make alternate way for end game gear. Puting it behind a system that destro has a 30% advantage in doesnt work.

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Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#496 » Mon May 25, 2020 9:39 pm

I've played against good order premades like TUP and Simtex crew or Sophia and her Knights of Order. It's quite hard to kill these premades with only morales because you usually don't survive to full morale drop.
Even VII Legion learned with time to bring an AM and kite for burning heads + SF.

Please don't tell me that you play DoK/WP as a backline healers because you don't. These classes has a cross group healing that and medium armour plus aoe detaunt. In a target priority of an MA WP/DoK won't be in a first place. Bouth classes have clear risk Vs reward mechanics that punish them for a bad positioning or reward them for a risky play.

No destro premades run any pumps on DPS or Healers except WE these days. Letting your shamans run a morale pump is reducing their survivability and healing output. Making your warband an easy pray for order melee train.
You can play with morales as win condition but you will be kited and order win late morale game because of SF and BH.

Every premade run at least two to three two- handers and snb chosens run M2 rotation it leaves you with 4 tanks with a morale pump and an offensive morale. Then you run a choppa and a squig that don't have any useful morale. So yes if morale drop isn't perfectly synchronized it will denied by syphons.
After 1 min Info a fight everybody have morales.

I still agree that IB, rSw, Engi/Magus and WH/WE need some balancing to help them be more useful in Warbands. That will help pug Warbands for sure.

But for premades - there is meta and only few premades are playing it so far. A lot of problems are coming from terrible drafts and bad execution on both sides.
Decade of bomb Warbands made people forget about guard swaps, interrupts and so on. It's the same for both sides

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Posts: 306

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#497 » Mon May 25, 2020 9:42 pm

If you are developer, you know your game is doing well when all people are bitching about is that their faction doesnt look cool.
40s: WP/Dok AM/Shaman RP/Zeal Knight/Chosen SM/BO BW/Sorc WL & Eng

Posts: 128

Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#498 » Mon May 25, 2020 9:50 pm

Omegus wrote:
Sun May 24, 2020 6:07 pm

I mean, you've kinda just agreed with me when I said it's easier to be disorganised on destro than it is order in cities. On the other hand, attacking keeps and forts (esp forts) as disorganised destro is far harder. Months and years of nerf BW/Engi threads that only went silent with cities were introduced. BW/Engi continue to be the same defensive powerhouses but at the moment all anyone can look at is the shinies in the city.

If we make it easier for disorganised destro to have an advantage in cities then we need to rebalance this all the way down to each point of rvr. The destro melee zerg finally got a game mode where it was at an advantage :P
I think the default answers from destro are.
We are just more organized. you need to organize better.
You arent playing the right classes. Destro plays too many melee and not enough magus.
blah blah blah

First off if destro is having such a hard time, then why is it 7-8 times out of 10 that it is destro pushing city. That doesnt sound like you are at a big disadvantage.

Second Having the end game gear in a setup where destro is running a 30% advantage is a big problem.

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Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#499 » Mon May 25, 2020 9:58 pm

Greenbeast wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 9:39 pm

No destro premades run any pumps on DPS or Healers except WE these days. Letting your shamans run a morale pump is reducing their survivability and healing output. Making your warband an easy pray for order melee train.
You can play with morales as win condition but you will be kited and order win late morale game because of SF and BH.

Every premade run at least two to three two- handers and snb chosens run M2 rotation it leaves you with 4 tanks with a morale pump and an offensive morale. Then you run a choppa and a squig that don't have any useful morale. So yes if morale drop isn't perfectly synchronized it will denied by syphons.
After 1 min Info a fight everybody have morales.

I love how you just conveniently leave marauders moral drain out of this....

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Re: Debate about why Order is how it is.

Post#500 » Mon May 25, 2020 10:14 pm

teiloh wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 8:53 pm
No offense but you have no idea what you're talking about and it's clear you've never played Order to even a medium rank.
Your entire post is making counter points to arguments and comparisons that I didn't make. When looking at what you can bring to cities, look at what you can bring to cities. Order cannot bring a MSH to do MSH things, but it can bring an ASW to do ASW things. When looking at what outgoing heal debuffs your order warband can bring, the Blackguard having an ability with a 0s cooldown doesn't change what you bring as you can't bring a Blackguard anyway.

But to give you a few points on how those classes can be very useful in an order warband:

ASW: nice SH rant. ASW the only class with an initiative debuff tactic, which means it stacks with initiative debuff abilities. The conversion from initiative to chance to be crit is non-linear and as someone's initiative gets closer to zero their chance to be crit absolutely skyrockets. As it's an initiative debuff on a spammable ability the entire warband benefits from it. The tactic also comes with other useful buffs. Being able to trivially stack Weapon Skill from 3 100+ buffs (Assault Stance, Wrist Slash and Instinctive Aim give 360?) not only increases your overall physical damage but also increases your defenses (which are further increased via other means as well). The initiative debuff (more crit) combines with the other crit bonuses the class gets, giving it high crit chance and far higher single target damage than most people expect. Being able to spec into a ranged outgoing heal debuff with no CD at the same time is extra nice. I'm trying to find 2 ASWs to test whether the tactic will stack with itself.

IB: Nice Blackguard rant. BTW most debuffs in the game don't stack; with very few exceptions anything from an ability doesn't stack with other abilities, but it will stack with tactics (which is why the ASW's init debuff tactic is good). I didn't say all of the buffs were amazing - I sadly mained an IB on live and know all too well of my ST buffs getting beaten by better AOE buffs. Fortunately there are some gems in there which aren't easily available from other sources, e.g. +25% parry (vs a destro melee zerg...). Much like the BG it also gets access to a -20% crit ability, and this affects heal crit as well as offensive crits. Most healers stack heal crit as their main source of increasing outgoing heals due to it scaling much better with high tooltip values and being able to cut off the vast majority of this drops healing output dramatically and also slows down the procs healers get on crit (crying in Zealot tears). Taking off two-thirds of my heal crit and then reducing what healing is left by 50%. Due to the popularity of BOs, BGs usually have to fight for their space in a WB and it seems the majority of WB leaders want one BG at the most. The same does not exist on order with SMs so IBs are not exactly fighting for spots. You pair them up with MDPS and go for the backlines.

WH: Again, I didn't compare it to WE, but if you insist: WH have a tactic in the right tree that gives them a 25% chance to remove 250 points of morale whenever they hit an opponent in the back. WE do not have this tactic (the mirror version is/was on the Marauder instead). Yes WH have a harder time applying it to multiple targets, but the big combo is with Dragon Gun. Fire it from behind and you're potentially hitting people up to 78ft away (48ft radius plus 30ft basic range - yes I know the initial target needs to be within 30ft). Some will lose 125 morale, some will lose 350 morale. It's not a full drain by any means but the effectiveness of it comes from forcing destro to hold off on the morale drop until everyone is there as partial drops are worthless. The longer you can hold off the drop the easier it is to get kills on key targets which drops their morale to zero (this part is always forgotten about). It's the best morale drain order have and you can usually justify a slot for 1 WH doing this. Outside of Dragon Gun I believe the idea is to use the Razor Strike to try and drain 3 people at once but I'm not 100% sure on this. edit: I've been told Dragon Gun can also throw out an outgoing heal debuff on everyone hit as everyone also gets hit by the WH's bullet, and that WE don't have access to this as kisses have an internal cooldown as they can proc on any attack.

AM: Nice Shaman rant. All I'm saying is that good morale pumping AMs are wanted in some order WBs and they have a hard time getting them. The Shaman one allows you to pump a party quicker it's true, but in order to do so the Shaman is losing a GCD every 10s to cast it (5s if you combo it with a Choppa or BO) and for the people in the group to be actively hitting people. The main benefit of the AM pump is that it has a 150 ft range and you can choose who is pumped in the warband. There's always a little bit of back and forth before the 2 warbands actually fight in city and during this time the AMs should be in combat (heal something that has gotten tagged by destro) and then pre-pumping morale ready for the push. I am not saying it's better or worse than the Shaman one, I am - much like the rest of this - just explaining how it should be used in cities.

You're right, I don't play order on ROR and never have done (as above I played them on live), so I don't know what mental blocks there are that discourage players from speccing for the above. I can only assume they start frothing at the mouth thinking about what the mirror does that they don't rather than looking at what they can do (don't worry, it happens all the time on destro when you mention WPs, Knights, Slayers and WLs to people). The experience I do have though is playing in an unholy amount of cities with an organised premade and seeing what order tactics work well and what doesn't. And the well played melee train by order does VERY well. Is it harder to coordinate than an AOE blob of BW and Slayers? Without a doubt.

I remember laughing at the proespect of people stacking WLs in the city... and then *that* happened :oops:
Last edited by Omegus on Mon May 25, 2020 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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