On Cities Starvation, Population Disparity and Classes Balance

[Ysaran]

Remove Engi from game and suddenly the amount of rdps players on Order equals the amount of rdps players on Destro.

Anyway, Order melee ball is more effective than Destro melee ball when it comes to highest possible potential between equally competent+geared players, it's just that the amount of good order guilds with full wb rosters is quite low compared to the destro arsenal of guilds running 2-2-2 setups.
Having WL nerfed does not help the Order frontlines, and another maybe more impactful difference is the lower number of Order tanks versus people playing Chosen/BORK/BG for fashion/looks.
IB is bit boring and having to play a piano to dish out ST buffs/debuffs might not be the most beloved tank class to play (plus you have to play a dwarf) - their 2h spec could probably use some minor boosting.
SM has received some nerfs over the years, from latest WoH range nerf to midtree 13pts being gutted, minipunt that requires block, removal of their Heavens Blade resis debuff.
KOTB has been thoroughly nerfed time after time, it remains solid WB tank pick, but their dmg output is abysmal as always, their crit buffs have been gutted, their m2 was at one time nerfed to have a 120s cd before getting some other nefs, Runefang has been nuked... Sure, the class might remain the most wanted tank for warbands even now, but good luck retaining players that want to remain knight mains if all you get is nerf after nerf year after year.


Order isn't somehow weak, but the absurd way some classes are overbuffed (engi buffs) versus hammering down nerfs down the throats of other classes (WL, Sm, Kotb, WH) and you start realizing why people would rather play rdps classes.

I get your point, seeing your class repeteadly being nerfed can surely discourage you, but the question is: where the nerf needed in the first place?
An overperforming class has to be tuned down, and an underperforming class has to be buffed. But maybe you can balance things out without the buff/nerf-hammer. maybe you can just switch a tactic/skill from a class to another to tune down one class and at the same time buff the second one without touching the inter-realm balance

[Wiede]

I can't tell you about statistics but i can tell you from lots of altoholic experience:

Order melee sucks balls... that's all.
Each of the order tanks is just plain no-fun bullshit to play compared to the gameplay of destro tanks.

Example:
You wanna buff your grp or just be tanky? No problem with BO: you can stand there forever playing HTL-Bot and AP-REG, buff your mates without target or while blocking or just use your complete OFF-Tree for tanking, why not you whot... and you look awesome. Then you switch to SM... there's no buffs without target, the only tank without any AP-generation, you're completely dependent on your stances to do **** or get buffs (block tactic)... You just run around being kited to **** trying to hit anything to just do your plain base job. Who the **** had the idea to connect your main Grp-Buff to your silence? Why do i need a target for all my **** blade enchantments *laughs in WAAAAGH and CHM buffing mah grp* And then you see your SM clip through each of his armors/shields... frustrating. For each of every "How-fun-is-this? LOL brrrrrrt"-moment with a destrotank there's minimum 1 "Holy-this-is-useless-and-frustrating"-moment for an order tank.

That you can follow through with BG vs. IB too... IB is so **** boring and lame to play compared to BG it's not even funny... holy **** half of my skills don't even deal damage and only block a GCD for that i just can jump around doing nothing... and thats for EVERY **** 10 SECONDS for 3-5 GCDs. You can play IB-Buffbot without even using 1 single damage dealing skill while taping permanently through your wb to max buff. Meanwhile BG goes BRRRRRRR in ST and AoE, numbers everywhere (even when fluff), pure enjoyment.

I played each and every tank for a while and everytime i log on order tanks i get bored out withing half an hour cause the gameplay of order tanks is sooooo much more frustrating and boring compared to Destro especially for the whole leveling time. I bet most order tanks get abandoned between lvl20-30.

You wonder why order melee is underpresented? FIx your god damn order tanks to actually be FUN TO PLAY and watch the melee participation of order rise automatically over time.

[Winry]

Start by changing the knight its the most boring class in the game, id rather watch paint dry than play it.

[Charon]

I can't tell you about statistics but i can tell you from lots of altoholic experience:

Order melee sucks balls... that's all.
Each of the order tanks is just plain no-fun bullshit to play compared to the gameplay of destro tanks.

Example:
You wanna buff your grp or just be tanky? No problem with BO: you can stand there forever playing HTL-Bot and AP-REG, buff your mates without target or while blocking or just use your complete OFF-Tree for tanking, why not you whot... and you look awesome. Then you switch to SM... there's no buffs without target, the only tank without any AP-generation, you're completely dependent on your stances to do **** or get buffs (block tactic)... You just run around being kited to **** trying to hit anything to just do your plain base job. Who the **** had the idea to connect your main Grp-Buff to your silence? Why do i need a target for all my **** blade enchantments *laughs in WAAAAGH and CHM buffing mah grp* For each of every "How-fun-is-this?"-moments with a destrotanks there's minimum 1 "****"-moment for an order tank.

This you can follow through with BG vs. IB too... IB is so **** boring and lame to play compared to BG it's not even funny... holy **** half of my skills don't even deal damage and only block a GCD when i just can jump around doing nothing... and thats for EVERY **** 10 SECONDS for 3-5 GCDs. You can play IB-Buffbot without even using 1 single damage dealing skill. Meanwhile BG goes BRRRRRRR in ST and AoE, numbers everywhere (even when fluff).

I played each and every tank for a while and everytime i log on order tanks i get bored out withing half an hour cause the gameplay of order tanks is sooooo much more frustrating and boring compared to Destro especially for the whole leveling time. I bet most order tanks get abandoned between lvl20-30.

You wonder why order melee is underpresented? FIx your god damn order tanks to actually be FUN TO PLAY and watch the melee participation of order rise automatically over time.

Yee +1, this is why one of biggest reason why things looks so grim to the order. But find me pls Dev who is planing order tank as a main and understand fully this issue. Maybe im wrong, but I don't know such person.

[yoluigi]

Destro 2h tanks are just better in small roaming they do more dps compare to knight and even Ib (but they are tankier). Squigs are really strong now in 6man better than melee SW ATM. Dps dok is better than Wp dps. The only class i see having an advantage in order for melee in small scale is Slayers compared to choopa.
Order ranged got better aoe build.

[Sundowner]

Destro 2h tanks are just better in small roaming they do more dps compare to knight and even Ib (but they are tankier). Squigs are really strong now in 6man better than melee SW ATM. Dps dok is better than Wp dps. The only class i see having an advantage in order for melee in small scale is Slayers compared to choopa.
Order ranged got better aoe build.

and to offset that devs nerfing order melee

[Banjomissen]

How about making Engi's tinker tree into a melee tree that more or less mirrors Choppas Wrrecka tree?

Then order will get the CD decreaser and a potential of lots of melees.

[Whyumadbro]

nerf order more, slayer nerf next then the problem goes away

[Aethilmar]

I can't tell you about statistics but i can tell you from lots of altoholic experience:

Order melee sucks balls... that's all.
Each of the order tanks is just plain no-fun bullshit to play compared to the gameplay of destro tanks.

Example:
You wanna buff your grp or just be tanky? No problem with BO: you can stand there forever playing HTL-Bot and AP-REG, buff your mates without target or while blocking or just use your complete OFF-Tree for tanking, why not you whot... and you look awesome. Then you switch to SM... there's no buffs without target, the only tank without any AP-generation, you're completely dependent on your stances to do **** or get buffs (block tactic)... You just run around being kited to **** trying to hit anything to just do your plain base job. Who the **** had the idea to connect your main Grp-Buff to your silence? Why do i need a target for all my **** blade enchantments *laughs in WAAAAGH and CHM buffing mah grp* And then you see your SM clip through each of his armors/shields... frustrating. For each of every "How-fun-is-this? LOL brrrrrrt"-moment with a destrotank there's minimum 1 "Holy-this-is-useless-and-frustrating"-moment for an order tank.

That you can follow through with BG vs. IB too... IB is so **** boring and lame to play compared to BG it's not even funny... holy **** half of my skills don't even deal damage and only block a GCD for that i just can jump around doing nothing... and thats for EVERY **** 10 SECONDS for 3-5 GCDs. You can play IB-Buffbot without even using 1 single damage dealing skill while taping permanently through your wb to max buff. Meanwhile BG goes BRRRRRRR in ST and AoE, numbers everywhere (even when fluff), pure enjoyment.

I played each and every tank for a while and everytime i log on order tanks i get bored out withing half an hour cause the gameplay of order tanks is sooooo much more frustrating and boring compared to Destro especially for the whole leveling time. I bet most order tanks get abandoned between lvl20-30.

You wonder why order melee is underpresented? FIx your god damn order tanks to actually be FUN TO PLAY and watch the melee participation of order rise automatically over time.

+1000 I only wish I had written this beautiful masterpiece. There is also a snowball effect in place too. Playing Destro tanks are not only less frustrating from a mechanics/abilities perspective but since Destro already has a "melee train mentality" it is straight up easier to tank there too b/c everyone is trained to follow the melee train (including rdps). Meanwhile on Order everyone is trained to kite (fancy way of saying run) so with there is a pretty high chance in any given encounter you will suddenly find yourself either alone or back-pedaling and hope that some friendly RP or WP (and, very rarely an AM) keeps you up while you provide cover for the fleeing masses.

[offlinemodus]

ror is dying slowly, whether you like it or not.
Population lower from day to day, devs decisions are not making that fact better...