Black Ork Adjustment

[IVendettaI]

big swing is very good. no need it change. sm dont have such possibility reduce destro str by x . u use it also for war below triger. similar to sm byt sm has spirit debuff (only good for very few classes) while str debuff work for any melle class. u have 1050 str after u get hited by big swing u have 970str. tanks has 150 str (aproximely) so yes dont touch big swing its already good.(chosen dont need run str aura)

Big Swing need damage up, these damages are ridiculous, and if you play Da Biggest! lots of spells aren't really effective. All stats debuff spells need a change of the debuff in question. Like Weapon Skill => Armor penetration

Or, Da Biggest! give new stats and debuff :

Strength => Melee Power
Weapon Skill => Armor Penetration
Toughness => %damage reduction/%incoming damage
Initiative => less incoming crit/more incoming crit
Willpower => more healing/less healing
Balistic skill => Ranged Power
intelligence => Magical Power

But with Melee/Ranged/Magical Power you can cumul with potion so it's really cheat haha, so i think the first idea is more fair

[Sinisterror]

1. You are completely correct that its too much to have cant hit me! along with Right back Atcha'! Maybe easiest would be to remove You wot!? and THC takes its place in the tree, and replace THC with Not in da face! and add 4 sec Full Party immunity to CC in Not In da Face like it used to have wayyyyback. And obviously Thc usable with shield!

2. I love Sm myself and man i miss the old Phantom Blade that had 25% chance to on hit 330 absorb shield<3 And yeah Racial Tactics have... well what to say even : D So huge differences. But nowadays when 2h gives 10% parryblock strikethru because WP was the only one who "for some reason" had 10% Parry Strikethru with 2h. Well the reason is obviously that he is Melee Healer : D So now that ALL have that extra 10% parry Strikethru Discerning Offense is imo only Racial that has its place, and can be powerful.

3. Edit; Personally i wouldnt say that Grudges give IB dmg. Nope NEEDS 100 grudge for full dmg and needs to slot 1 tactic to get grudges when hitting enemy. Reason why it works like this compared to BG is because originally BG didnt get Hate when "Oathfriend" takes dmg. People cried on the forums alot, and it was changed. So reason why IB needs to slot tactic to gain grudge on hit is an oversight from 15yrs ago=)

1. You mean that Not in da face will be CC immunity instead of cooldowns, right? Kinda okay, but feels off being placed in offence tree. And you can't use Ether Dance without 2h so...

2. I'm not sure that those 10% can matter unless you are fighting fellow tanks/def mdps while roaming. When you try to assist something, its usually not that hard to attack your target from behind, and in case of healer killing its usually irrelevant. Unlike +25% to crit damage.

3. At some point, there was no oathfriend for BG at all. And no armor debuff. Well, as a former BG player, i think that BG is almost perfect as a tank now, you have a clear builds for sc, orvr and roam without any particular weakness (because you do have 2h knockdown and armor debuff now).

I mean not in da face would have that 4 sec party immunity WITH cooldowns,it used to work like this. Something else ive thought is not in da face would also decrease cooldowns by 4sec for 8 seconds on defensive target or yourself. You are correct there was no "oathfriend" for BG i rememberd wrong that it didnt give hate when oathfriend was attacked. Only reason i even edited that ib/bg thing was because i saw someone saying grudge gives IB dmg like its a good thing and i wanted to correct that its not a positve thing for IB. I rembemer playing BG wayback and dinged lvl 9 and didnt get armour debuff like i was expecting, but that was changed in 2009.

I know that Ether Dance is always been 2h only like Ib Grudge born fury. Rest of the tanks get same 3s cast 8s cd channel and its usable with snb or 2h. btw im not disagreeing with you on anything i think : D BG used to have Blade of Fury or something close to that, it required parry and was good dmg dot. It was removed from ror and Enraged Beating took its place in the tree as a first abilty + they got 2h KD at the same time.

Imo that is too much. BG is very smooth to play and IB feels like "Alpha version" of Bg. Just personal opinion but that 2h KD is too much goodies for BG. And the reason why snb thc for black orc is "must have" because it worked like that Live, and if only reason to change it to 2h only is "Why would you play 2h as a black orc" is not good reason: D

Its kind of funny because i LOVED Brawler Shield black orc with thc and 25% crit dmg tactic and that alone made it my favourite tank to play and only one i played with shield : D Man i was depressed and didnt know what to do with blorc when they took thc snb away=)

EDIT; Lol i didnt know that SM parry buff and snare are physical dmg : o I knew that Deep Inscision was physical and didnt understand why it would be,but yep Gryphon Lash would be super op if it was spirit dmg. I remember seeing some stream where chosen just spammed undefendable skill like Gl against sm and it was insane how fast chosen killed the sm : D But imo chosen should have never gotten "All dmg is spirit dmg" tactic but kotbs needs it back! And btw never include AA dmg on those: D

EDIT 2; Does anyone know was Jagged Edge always corporeal dmg? because mention of Corp dmg was not in the tactic description in the beginning.

[Sulorie]

Edit; Personally i wouldnt say that Grudges give IB dmg. Nope NEEDS 100 grudge for full dmg and needs to slot 1 tactic to get grudges when hitting enemy. Reason why it works like this compared to BG is because originally BG didnt get Hate when "Oathfriend" takes dmg. People cried on the forums alot, and it was changed. So reason why IB needs to slot tactic to gain grudge on hit is an oversight from 15yrs ago=)

It was no oversight, they were designed this way. IB gaining grudge passively, while BG has to be active.
Then players intervened and look what we got. :^)

[Absinth]

What? Redirected Force works from block and is an ability - you don't use one of your precious 4 tactics for it. Blorc should have a similar punt from shield spec, honestly. Shield spec is lacking in the utility that other tanks have. Don't start bringing tactics comparisons when we are talking about punts, because we could play that game for a few pages here and get no where. Yes, some tanks have tactic options that others don't. There are pros and cons to each.

Thats why i said that BO version should not work from block, since shield BO has Cant Hit Me to instablock anything (well, almost anything...).

You're advocating for giving 2H BO a medium to long distance single target punt, then. Not sure you're thinking this through. Its quite easy to pull off SM after-block punts without a channel block ability as you should be in guard range blocking attacks at all times.

always can force the "requires shield to use" thing.

[Avernus]

1. I mean not in da face would have that 4 sec party immunity WITH cooldowns,it used to work like this. Something else ive thought is not in da face would also decrease cooldowns by 4sec for 8 seconds on defensive target or yourself. You are correct there was no "oathfriend" for BG i rememberd wrong that it didnt give hate when oathfriend was attacked. Only reason i even edited that ib/bg thing was because i saw someone saying grudge gives IB dmg like its a good thing and i wanted to correct that its not a positve thing for IB. I rembemer playing BG wayback and dinged lvl 9 and didnt get armour debuff like i was expecting, but that was changed in 2009.

2. I know that Ether Dance is always been 2h only like Ib Grudge born fury. Rest of the tanks get same 3s cast 8s cd channel and its usable with snb or 2h. btw im not disagreeing with you on anything i think : D BG used to have Blade of Fury or something close to that, it required parry and was good dmg dot. It was removed from ror and Enraged Beating took its place in the tree as a first abilty + they got 2h KD at the same time.

3. Imo that is too much. BG is very smooth to play and IB feels like "Alpha version" of Bg. Just personal opinion but that 2h KD is too much goodies for BG. And the reason why snb thc for black orc is "must have" because it worked like that Live, and if only reason to change it to 2h only is "Why would you play 2h as a black orc" is not good reason: D

4. Its kind of funny because i LOVED Brawler Shield black orc with thc and 25% crit dmg tactic and that alone made it my favourite tank to play and only one i played with shield : D Man i was depressed and didnt know what to do with blorc when they took thc snb away=)

5. EDIT; Lol i didnt know that SM parry buff and snare are physical dmg : o I knew that Deep Inscision was physical and didnt understand why it would be,but yep Gryphon Lash would be super op if it was spirit dmg. I remember seeing some stream where chosen just spammed undefendable skill like Gl against sm and it was insane how fast chosen killed the sm : D But imo chosen should have never gotten "All dmg is spirit dmg" tactic but kotbs needs it back! And btw never include AA dmg on those: D

6. EDIT 2; Does anyone know was Jagged Edge always corporeal dmg? because mention of Corp dmg was not in the tactic description in the beginning.

1. What about SM immunities skill then? How it supposed to look compared to this? Just an ability that worse than BO's ability? You have WW for cooldowns already (as SM).

2. Blade of Rhuin?

3. Not really. There is no Crimson Death or Unsoppable Fury for IB, but IB has some good buffs for yourself AND his oathfriend (crit+parry+AP pump) and still can use his 2h knockdown (builder says its 3s but i always remebered it as 4s). And some of his skills start to deal a lot more damage when you have full grudges (unlike BG). IB knockback doesn't require you to have 90+ hate/grudges to be useful. Still can't AoE faceroll like BG though (the thing i was very fond of...).

4. Yeah, i bet you remember that BO from cinematic intro...Still no duals for SW though...

5. There are few more physical skills for SM but whatever. Btw, as far as i know, there is no "all damage to spirit" tactic for chosen, only the one to turn your channeling damage to spirit. You can still spam Rending Blade with Chop Fasta up though.(Undefendable AoE btw...).

6. Maybe at some point of the game it wasn't. Can't remember...

[Fey]

Single target punt is a core tank mechanic. It is as fundamental as guard, taunt, and challenge. Without a viable single target punt you're just a shitty dps. I assumed we all know this.

Do all the damage you want as a 2-hand BO. You're still hot garbage engi level sad dps.

You Wot is as stupid as Wez, Bigger. One is stupid good, the other stupid sucks.

[Avernus]

Single target punt is a core tank mechanic. It is as fundamental as guard, taunt, and challenge. Without a viable single target punt you're just a shitty dps. I assumed we all know this.

Do all the damage you want as a 2-hand BO. You're still hot garbage engi level sad dps.

You Wot is as stupid as Wez, Bigger. One is stupid good, the other stupid sucks.

Well, thats why i want 2h punt as SM, i really don't like shield tanks and, while as BG it was okay to 2h, 2h SM is pepe if you want to play competitive.

[Cyrylius]

2h SM is viable for competitive play, 2h blork is not.

[IVendettaI]

2h SM is viable for competitive play, 2h blork is not.

Everything you say is really crap, and I'm really weighing my words. Imagine what I should say in reality, but it would be extremely banishable, you are really very lucky mate !

[Bozzax]

Except SM is good in ranked and BO is the worst tank bc of lack of dmg pressure and ST punt

BG>chosen>>>>> BO

There are results that prove this beyond a doubt

In orvr you need 4 chosens and pref 1-2 BGs maybe a few more chosens or bo simple as tha

4 Chosen>>>> 1-2 bg > more chosens or a BO or two

We can thank torq for the Marvelous ability that make BO great

(Personally I always suspected Dalgri owned him to much 1-1 or something shortly after that there was that post about SnB BOs doing to much damage from him and lol BO got priority in rework. Also if I remember correctly WHs got buffed to auto win mode)