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Reduce the tankiness of healers and healer hybrids

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Caduceus
Posts: 696

Re: Reduce the tankiness of healers and healer hybrids

Post#21 » Sat Jun 01, 2024 7:19 am

Keula wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2024 5:58 am
Caduceus wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2024 4:55 am
Healers are exempt from this crucial risk-reward balance, and I have yet to hear a compelling reason for why that should be the case.
Well how would you solve it?

Currently willpower scales very poorly, which is the root cause of the problem. There's no real trade-off for stacking defenses, because willpower is such a bad stat it's barely worth considering.

As I noted in my earlier post, base healing should be reduced and willpower should be made to scale better.

The result will be less tanky healers, because like all classes they will have to invest in their primary stat. Additionally, by making willpower a stronger stat, there will be a reason for healers to stack more willpower at the cost of survivability, thus introducing risk-reward to the healer class.

So while this would be a nerf to healers, it will open up more build options for skilled healers who are prepared to forego high defenses and get greater healing in return.

By making healers less tanky overall, they will be more susceptible to harassment and focus-fire, and thus additional tactical options are opened up to break through the healer/tank safety net which in my opinion is the main benefit of this approach: more tactical options.

As to the exact numbers, I don't know. My suggestion would be to avoid rash changes.
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Zxul
Posts: 1890

Re: Reduce the tankiness of healers and healer hybrids

Post#22 » Sat Jun 01, 2024 8:36 am

Ysaran wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2024 5:33 am As far as I understand the OP play mainly solo and thus all this (reasonable) consideration are completely pointless. He plays WH so the situation he talking about is the following: he stealth, open on a healer with KD, healer doesn't die, healer get up, healer detaunt and self heal, healer give him the middle finger and run. In all this guard, challenge, assist and so on play no role
In that case problem isn't the healer's defenses though- back in the day I was solo killing healers on WE in similar situation just fine. The problem is with OP expecting to kill healers without any effort. You need both double healing debuff (which WH can get), and to pressure the healer long enough till he runs out of defensive cooldowns- meaning both enough dmg and enough ap to deliver and keep the pressure past the detaunt.
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kirraha
Posts: 300
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Re: Reduce the tankiness of healers and healer hybrids

Post#23 » Sat Jun 01, 2024 9:19 am

I don't think healers are to tanky at all. Why should I need do be punished cause I know how to detaunt a solo dps and manage it? It sounds absoluelty absurd to nerf healers after GCD was ''fixed''. Healing is slower now, you can also add nerf on Armortalismans which also made healers less tanky.

If I as a healer get targeted by acually good dps, I will have to work for it and might need assist from my team. Unless I play my cards right and have correct specc to survive a solo dps. If you get targeted by 2 good dps, you DEF will need a tank or crosshealing even if you run BIS. A rly strong healer can die withing 2 seconds if you are getting focused by a st 6man and you are not rdy for it. I don't know what you talking about complaining on healers being 2 tanky. There is plenty of rly bad dps running around trying to stab you with wrong specc, trash gear and no experience then they get angry cause they can't kill you.

Dackjanielz
Posts: 326

Re: Reduce the tankiness of healers and healer hybrids

Post#24 » Sat Jun 01, 2024 10:12 am

Healers already have it rough as it is, we need more of them not less.

A healing specced healer should have some survivability because its the only thing they DO have, they have to survive gigantic lawn mower blobs or they would be literally unplayble.

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Uchoo
Posts: 543

Re: Reduce the tankiness of healers and healer hybrids

Post#25 » Sat Jun 01, 2024 11:22 am

Caduceus wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2024 4:55 am I'm not sure if that is a hallmark of good design.

DPS can't stack defenses without gimping their damage. In fact, they need to squeeze out every bit of damage they can get in order to combat the tank/healer safety net, which leaves most DPS classes vulnerable and reliant on their teammates.

This goes for practically all DPS classes, but in 6v6 tanks function this way too, and tanks have to balance damage and survivability.

But that's how it should be, because it makes these players more reliant on personal skill and positioning to keep themselves safe.


Healers are exempt from this crucial risk-reward balance, and I have yet to hear a compelling reason for why that should be the case.
I actually think that this is indeed a hallmark of good design and under-designed classes should be brought UP. This not only makes gameplay richer and more rewarding but makes strategy during fights much deeper.

Let me ask you, would you rather..

A. Remove Grimnir's Shield from Rune Priest
or
B. Give DPS classes cooldowns similar to it?

A great example is Witch Hunter/Witch Elf, which was given Vanish; or Choppa, which was reworked into having Furious Stompin. All of these tools are fun to play both with and against.

Now you mentioned that DPS are forced to go completely glass cannon. That's simply not true. You know how I play most of my DPS? FS4, Crit 2, Parry / Deft Defender 4. I LOVE glass cannon players because even with FS4, I still crit them the same amount. Sometimes as DPS, I'm forced to take off Bloodlord weapon and I often use a few Wounds Talismans on DPS as well. It's not about being full Glass Cannon, it's about having a good build and picking up the most efficient sources of damage and pushing your buttons in a good order with good target selection.

I'm assuming that a lot of the people complaining about Healer survivability are solo players. Adding depth to under-designed classes brings UP solo players even moreso because it adds power exclusively to a single player's kit and thus, to player agency. The gameplay of RoR is only a few steps away from feeling a little more similar to say.. WoW or SWTOR PvP where solo players tend to feel a lot more comfortable. Now I'm not saying that we should add a ton of things, just enough to increase the richness of the game for everyone, without taking away from Warhammer Online's Group and Support-based design.
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salazarn
Posts: 177

Re: Reduce the tankiness of healers and healer hybrids

Post#26 » Sat Jun 01, 2024 1:01 pm

Uchoo wrote: Fri May 31, 2024 10:10 pm
Caduceus wrote: Fri May 31, 2024 5:23 pm The problem is that willpower scales very poorly, and healers don't need to invest in it to heal sufficiently.
Willpower actually scales very well! However, you are correct that Healers don't need to stack it to do their job. The Healer classes are just well designed and have the tools to function without needing a 250 healing bonus, with maybe dok being an exception.

Healers DO need to build tanky to be able to function properly, the game without it would be sheer terror for them.

If you're having trouble killing a healer, I suggest learning about the different buffs and debuffs in the game such as armor and healing debuffs; assisting with another dps as a solo dps will rarely kill through detaunt (healers can usually only detaunt 1 person).

There are other considerations as well. In a 12 man, there are 4 healers who can all crossheal; in a full warband, there are 8. It can be a puzzle to learn how to defeat it but many have before you and you can too!
Why is that good design. If a dps did great damage without stacking any kind of offensive stats and sacrificing durability it would be clearly imbalanced or a regen witch elf. Maybe healers are just used to having it too good compared to other mmos. Healers are way squishier in classic wow

salazarn
Posts: 177

Re: Reduce the tankiness of healers and healer hybrids

Post#27 » Sat Jun 01, 2024 1:07 pm

Dackjanielz wrote: Sat Jun 01, 2024 10:12 am Healers already have it rough as it is, we need more of them not less.

A healing specced healer should have some survivability because its the only thing they DO have, they have to survive gigantic lawn mower blobs or they would be literally unplayble.
No one should survive a lawnmower blob. No one does survive a lawn mower blob.

Making healers actually spec into will power and heal crit would probably only boost healing if they have good positioning in mass rvr.

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Specialpatrol
Posts: 306

Re: Reduce the tankiness of healers and healer hybrids

Post#28 » Sat Jun 01, 2024 1:18 pm

Toughness has also been significantly boosted here, compared to live.

If I’m not mistaken, then Toughness reduces the attacking stat 1/1 here on RoR, whereas on live it was 1/5.
APONYMOUS l WP l R40 l RR8X
BRAKEDOWN l KOTBS l R40 l RR8X
BOILING l BW l R40 l RR8X
PUFFED l SLY l R40 l RR8X
RHYTHM l AM l R40 l RR8X
EEWULL l DOK l R3X l RR4X

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Bozzax
Posts: 2606

Re: Reduce the tankiness of healers and healer hybrids

Post#29 » Sat Jun 01, 2024 1:20 pm

Nope other way around
1. Availability: less on healer gear and I mean way less
2. Core: only reduce offensive stats not ability damage

Related:
3. Armor is nerfed and armor pen is way more available
4. Absorbs are more effective bc they prevent crits
Last edited by Bozzax on Sat Jun 01, 2024 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bozzax
Posts: 2606

Re: Reduce the tankiness of healers and healer hybrids

Post#30 » Sat Jun 01, 2024 1:24 pm

Nerf healers and you get less players playing healers and less heals simple as that

Allready a dps oriented blob fiesta but I guess some are incapable

Not really related to op tbh
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Observation: The lack of real balancing (or slow pace), matchmaker excellence and low retention % of new players is also starting to hurt the game and I guess (lets hope I am wrong) we we will see a 50% pop 2025.
A reasonable RvR system that could make the majority happy http://imgur.com/HL6cgl7

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