[PTS] Combustion & Dark magic

[Nameless]

Then just buff magus and engies not this global sorc snd bw nerf and imo range phys dps classes are at better spot than bw/sorc even damage wise

[Hellforce]

Anyone tested the after patch BW/Sorcerer can give any hints-info-first thoughts please? I will test mine tomorrow and give feedback!!

[germ32]

The keyword in my post is 'effective' damage - because half of your damage is absorbed by Guard and/or Detaunt by default. And that's without taking into account other damage reduction and the constant stream of absorb shields your targets will be receiving. 2k-3k effective damage on target with quick burst rotations is a best-case scenario - usually it won't even register on the enemy's health bar.

Mdps have a detaunt range of 30ft, your team's tanks can punt players out of guard range for them to be bursted. Again I question, what "competetive" teams is everyone playing with where your tanks cannot perform a punt and have dps focus said punted player? Or vice versa punt the tank and kill unguarded dps.

It is pretty optimal for tanks to run punt tactics that increase the height and distance of punted players, and players punted this way will be out of guard range for the duration of that punt which is more than enough time to nuke them.

There is opportunity whether you like to admit it or not to deal full damage to opposing players as a BW or Sorc that don't require you to spend 10s -- that is my point.

You cannot cast M1 Mage Bolt after fleeing for the same reason you cannot cast M2 Focused Mind. Flee takes away all your morale. Using either Flee or Mage Bolt means you will not have M2 Focused Mind available, and that is your only real escape tool.

I'm quite sure flee used to take away all of your morale, I have used morale 1 for 100% dodge, parry as of late while fleeing. Now it causes your morale to degen instead of be removed so this is in fact possible, I literally just tested this to confirm.

These aren't disaster scenarios. What I've described are basic things in 6v6.


If you don't care about competitive game modes and believe the game should be balanced around casual play in ORvR and SCs that's fine.
However, in that case there's no point in a long discussion, because then we disagree on balancing fundamentals.

But I'd appreciate if you do not second guess everything I'm saying if you have little to no experience with competitive settings.

I'm saying if you let a melee train get on top of you and then complain 'why cant i do damage', that is a disaster scenario. Not every 6v6 has to play out like this if you are using a bit of foresight to position yourself correctly.

And don't worry the feeling is mutual, I also question your level of experience in these "competitive" settings because apparently none of the tanks you play with have any cc or ever use slows.

MDPS can break snares and slows once every 60s for 10s so your job as a ranged DD is to play around this. To say that it is impossible to not get run over by melee trains I think is quite disingenuous.

Could you at least address the point I made regarding channels being stronger for ranged players due to how cone of fire works now? That has nothing to do with any of this?

Are you talking about the changes to how AoE radius and cones are calculated? As far as I am aware this has affected MDPS channels too.

Yes, and as a ranged damage dealer targets are significantly less likely to be able to escape a ranged attacker's cone of fire -- where for a melee all you need to do is step behind them.

Depending on your connection speed this can make channels impossible to use against any target that is not knocked down or rooted, so this is a significant advantage for ranged players to be able to stack timestamps using channels where melees often cannot.

This affords burst opportunity for ranged players because you can time channel ticks with your next gcd to for multiple hits in one timestamp, coupled with the crit damage sorcs and bws have this allows you to deal high burst even if you don't have time for 10s of setup.

[germ32]

In the current state of the game, other classes can rival it or even surpass.

That is the problem though isn't it? This class mechanic has been like this since live, other mdps classes get only +50% crit damage and they need to slot tactics to do this.

Many rpds classes were buffed over the years to be able to compete with BWs and Sorcs who have always been this strong. In my opinion most rpds classes are over tuned, I think a nerf could and should also be applied to at least SWs as well who have the most complete kit in the game by far (cant really make any claims about SH because I don't have one and I never fight them because I only play destro), and deal as much damage as sorcs and BWs

Everyone always dogs mythic about how many mistakes they made with the game. This mechanic has never been changed, are we really going to sit here and say that "yea the developers over at mythic got this mechanic exactly right, this is fine"?

Seems like you're missing the point. Why would any class have the need to 'compete' with BW and Sorc? They were made as ultimate glass canons. They are supposed to do the biggest damage in the game. If you want to do as much damage as them, feel free to give up your armor, charge, cc, heal debuff and suffer morale damage each time you use a skill.

So are you saying that SWs, engis, magi as they were on live were able to deal a competitive amount of damage when compared to a fully developed class like BWs and Sorcs? My opinion is that Sorcs and BWs on this server have always been used as a benchmark for how strong other ranged classes should be, and I think this has always been the wrong approach.

Case in point is that engis, magi, Sws (not sure about SH) are all significantly stronger than they were on live. What other reason would justify each of these classes receiving said buffs over this period of time if comparisons between those classes and BWs/Sorcs have never been drawn?

They are the same archetype (rdps), their performance is and will continue to be compared.

The idea of BWs and sorcs being "glass cannons" is true for solo play, becomes much less true in group play. They are not at all hard to protect in my opinion or keep alive and the mechanic damage from combustion is negligible when combined with healing.

[germ32]

Everyone always dogs mythic about how many mistakes they made with the game. This mechanic has never been changed, are we really going to sit here and say that "yea the developers over at mythic got this mechanic exactly right, this is fine"?

Counter question, but if the classes havnt seen any changes since the last added gear powerspikes in
- 2020 city sieges sovereign gear added
- land of the dead accesories
- Ability rework earlier this year indirect change to resist debuffs with SM debuffing all resist

Then why now, suddenly 4 years after latest big gear powerspike and no forum posts, no ror discord mass whine, no "omg i got oneshotted" comments from new players not grasping backloaded timestamps, why now. Why is it NOW with almost no changes for such a long time that the classes with no big uproar is suddenly deemed too strong?!

I cant really make any claims as to why now vs before. My stance is that this has always been too strong, I griped about this during this server's infancy when vanquisher was BiS and I cant seem to find those posts any more. I'm just glad to see this being discussed again

What I would argue is that the nerf to global cooldowns which used to allow melees to hit abilities 1.15s after their previous ability as opposed to always 1.5s, has been a significant nerf to melees and has more or less not affected any class that relies on abilities with cast times or channels for dealing damage. These abilities being sear, gloomburst, fireball barrage, hand of ruin, withering heat.

The fact that your enemies are very unlikely to be able to step outside of your cone of fire while channeling makes burst with channel abilities more effective for casters than for melees.

Global cooldowns continue to cool down as you are casting or channeling and this allows ranged players to continue to stack timestamps for burst using these abilities (wait for a channel tick and use another instant cast simultaneously) the same as they always have where melees are now forced to slow the pace of their abilities.


Also to one of your previous points about absorbs and not being able to crit players with absorbs -- I'm quite sure that on live absorbs applied no mitigation at all (none from armor, resistance or toughness), I'm not even confident that they prevented crits on live. I distinctly remember rah-nut (3600 absorb trinket) being chewed through instantly (was still useful because it required no gcd).

If nerfing absorbs is what it takes for people to be able to swallow the pill of nerfing combusion / dark magic I'm for it, because they are an insanely strong counter to burst and are essentially negative 2000 damage (if you factor in the fact that they prevent crits) to a player in a single instant cast GCD.

[akisnaakkeli]

This is the fault of "Making everything THE SAME " Meaning removing Sw's 15% Crit for example. Kotbs has been so neutered its sad. Crippling Strikes removed. And the reasons are always compared to random skill from random class.... like "How is it fair for kotbs to get 240 ws ini str nothing else in the game gives so much stats for free" its not free its MUST have tactic for kotbs to get any armour pene or parry, well i mean now the ini would give the parry..

There are so many examples but the most insane one is the GCD 1.5s hardcap making all heals/casters who do alot of over 1.5s (all of them) casts much more powerful when we can use 2 instant skills less in 10+seconds than we used to. ae cap 24 + morale dmg cap added all these 3 things are in top 5 of changes that made the game break and worse.

There was the 100% dmg morale's and Sh having shootin thru ya as spammable on the move ability which was great and needed on destro, Because destro needs more ranged ae pressure and order needs more ae melee presssure. Great opportunity to make SH ranged aoe pressure better and SW melee ae better. Well the opposite happened.

so called supporting dps had tools, very powerful tools to make them able to kill, out cc or give huge buffs to party to compensate. Hence dps dok having 70-80% of true dps dmg and 20% of true healers heals, but they HAD the ae heal debuff making them NEEDED because, well Ae hd is powerful. Maybe they original WAR DEVS knew why give all the aoe heal debuffs to dps healer specs?

[shoelessHN]

If you're going to change the core mechanic after 15 years why not remove all the self-damage?

It serves no purpose in warband play and just makes new players hate the class when they try to complete a quest.

[reyaloran]

I find it hilarious that so many are defending this change. Tell me one way that Sorc/BW were over performing. Their damage either relayed on getting multiple crits in a vary telegraphed timestamp that could be neutered by a single shield cast or doing sustained dps in AoE with the caveat of doing 1/10th of your own health bar as moral damage every 3rd cast on average and doing about the same damage as a mara or WL played to a similar level who don't have that caveat and bring more utility to the party at the same time. If anything Sorc and BW could have used a buff to make our self damage and lack of utility worth it, instead all of our playstyles are getting nerfed due to bad players crying about being timestamped while not watching for the obvious telegraph.

[Tisaya]

They have straight up murdered the archetype

[Panel]

They have straight up murdered the archetype

No - the archetype was straight up murdering everything just as usual with its guarded bomb squad nonsense in praag earlier today. "Nerf" hasnt made a jot of difference.