[PTS] Combustion & Dark magic

[Nameless]

The thing is that they could lower the damage by other means without touching class mechanics. Rhey should just alter or lower sov 15% damage increase for example or alter bl staff dmg increase. After all the nerf is suppose to hit the top bis geared bws/sorcs but now it effect everyone which sux cos avarege solo bw ir sorcs is hardly any powerhouse.

[Tisaya]

Playing against Sorcs and BW's, I don't see the class damage being a big deal. Yeah, 2 BiS Sorcs will timestamp 100-0 anyone but tank. So what? 2 SH's will drop you as fast or even faster. So will 2 WE's/WH's.

If anything, archetype damage seems pretty mild for being a pure all-or-nothing glasscanon. In the current state of the game, other classes can rival it or even surpass.

So why a nerf, all of sudden? Is this archetype really the _most_ problematic in the game?

[germ32]

germ32,

You seem to be talking about non-competitive environments, whereas I was talking about competitive environments. Competitive environments should be, in my opinion, the main driver behind balance changes.

Of course you can adjust your rotation to pick off low-health targets or do damage on the move when zerg surfing in ORvR or in casual SCs.

In 6v6 that's entirely different. If you're not pulling your weight with high damage rotations, there are not going to be any low-health targets to pick off. 2k-3k effective damage on target is just not going to cut it against a strong 6man.

Also the Flee + AP pot combo is a staple in casual play, but in 6v6 it is extremely risky as it consumes your morale leaving you without M2 Focused Mind, which is your only real escape tool.
In other words, if anyone on the opposing team is paying attention and has a Ranged CC (like a RP/Zealot stagger) you will be caught and subsequently subjected to a minute or two of being wailed on, likely resulting in your death.

You keep just saying competitive environment, competitive environment -- what is competitive about playing on a team of people where tanks cant punt targets away from guards and dps players cant assist each other? It just isn't necessary to spend 10s for every target you are attacking in order to deal some amount of burst.

Also where are you getting 2-3k damage from, if you hit someone 4 times with gloomburst + hor, into 2nd tick of hor and ID, each of these hits can easily crit 1k if not more, landing in two timestamps and each of these can also proc other damage effects, is more like 4k-6k. Also if they are melee you have likely at least dotted them before they are right in your face and your own tanks has probably slowed them, you also get access to abilities like ice spikes, surging pain and infernal wave against melee targets which are all instant cast.

Even losing morale I think being able to avoid a melee train entirely is more effective than saving morale just in case you need to break silence or slows with focused mind. You also have mage bolt to knock back if you need which is only a m1, can easily be used while fleeing.

It just seems like people get so easily fixated on these disaster scenarios where you are dealing no damage and cant help yourself vs "competetive" teams, when I am quite sure there is much more counterplay than sorc and bw players would like to have others believe.

Could you at least address the point I made regarding channels being stronger for ranged players due to how cone of fire works now? That has nothing to do with any of this?

[germ32]

In the current state of the game, other classes can rival it or even surpass.

That is the problem though isn't it? This class mechanic has been like this since live, other mdps classes get only +50% crit damage and they need to slot tactics to do this.

Many rpds classes were buffed over the years to be able to compete with BWs and Sorcs who have always been this strong. In my opinion most rpds classes are over tuned, I think a nerf could and should also be applied to at least SWs as well who have the most complete kit in the game by far (cant really make any claims about SH because I don't have one and I never fight them because I only play destro), and deal as much damage as sorcs and BWs

Everyone always dogs mythic about how many mistakes they made with the game. This mechanic has never been changed, are we really going to sit here and say that "yea the developers over at mythic got this mechanic exactly right, this is fine"?

[wonshot]

Everyone always dogs mythic about how many mistakes they made with the game. This mechanic has never been changed, are we really going to sit here and say that "yea the developers over at mythic got this mechanic exactly right, this is fine"?

Counter question, but if the classes havnt seen any changes since the last added gear powerspikes in
- 2020 city sieges sovereign gear added
- land of the dead accesories
- Ability rework earlier this year indirect change to resist debuffs with SM debuffing all resist

Then why now, suddenly 4 years after latest big gear powerspike and no forum posts, no ror discord mass whine, no "omg i got oneshotted" comments from new players not grasping backloaded timestamps, why now. Why is it NOW with almost no changes for such a long time that the classes with no big uproar is suddenly deemed too strong?!

We wanna look at how Overpowered BW looked with Stacking Rain of Fires?
Rof no line of sight, stacking on the ground, way lower resist on the players for this gear tier:
https://youtu.be/ZYzFg40b7Uw?si=KKlqiwR9_rUzh3sL&t=21

Ole Closequaters giving +25% bonus damage within 45ft:
https://youtu.be/t-g7O2ts8uo?si=Bk1GCTj2NnGDoqQ_&t=73

One of the "newer" youtube videos i know of for the sovereign powerspike on RoR aoe BW and with addon showing the icons of the abilities to give better impression. This is roughly same powerspike as currently with some slight tweeks to procs and SM debuffing abit higher resist values.
But the point being, check and compare the damagenumbers both against pugs with the old close quaters and exact same Class mechanic values and this almost exact powercreep from this video. Very immobile, squishy closecombat damagedealer with no sustain, mitigation, mobility boosts. Any slayer, choppa, wl would be close in damage output and bring more utility in these fights to make up for BW being a purebreed damagedealer and the damage numbers doesnt seem all that impressive, even against pugs:
https://youtu.be/9pvqSpABXrA?si=1c1Zshxjitf0Rv51&t=450

Only example I personally had against fighting 2-2-2 guildwarbands as i havnt streamed in years:
Mainly really showing this for the Damagenumbers outside of when affected by Bellow as it isnt as often these days.
4 years ago damage against guarded targets as we ran a control engineer trying to stagger the backline and kill frontline approach
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/661549354?t=00h00m18s

All of this had the exact same version of the class mechanic, my point being. Balance the overperforming abilities and the class mechanic is just fine. If you start touching something that universal, it will affect all aspects of the game for these classes and who knows how that will create new issues.
Rof was stacking and overtuned, got adjusted
Close Quaters tactic was too much, got changed.
What EXACTLY is overtuned on BW/Sorc atm that they need a nerf to both classes in Singletarget, Aoe, leveling, pve?
Last youtube video I saw of Evil's sorc in City, his DC never critted higher than his Morale 375 procs in a competitive 2-2-2 instance. Is that overpowered and needs to be turned down with a blanket nerf??

[Paxsanarion]

Everyone always dogs mythic about how many mistakes they made with the game. This mechanic has never been changed, are we really going to sit here and say that "yea the developers over at mythic got this mechanic exactly right, this is fine"?

Counter question, but if the classes havnt seen any changes since the last added gear powerspikes in
- 2020 city sieges sovereign gear added
- land of the dead accesories
- Ability rework earlier this year indirect change to resist debuffs with SM debuffing all resist

Then why now, suddenly 4 years after latest big gear powerspike and no forum posts, no ror discord mass whine, no "omg i got oneshotted" comments from new players not grasping backloaded timestamps, why now. Why is it NOW with almost no changes for such a long time that the classes with no big uproar is suddenly deemed too strong?!

We wanna look at how Overpowered BW looked with Stacking Rain of Fires?
Rof no line of sight, stacking on the ground, way lower resist on the players for this gear tier:
https://youtu.be/ZYzFg40b7Uw?si=KKlqiwR9_rUzh3sL&t=21

Ole Closequaters giving +25% bonus damage within 45ft:
https://youtu.be/t-g7O2ts8uo?si=Bk1GCTj2NnGDoqQ_&t=73

One of the "newer" youtube videos i know of for the sovereign powerspike on RoR aoe BW and with addon showing the icons of the abilities to give better impression. This is roughly same powerspike as currently with some slight tweeks to procs and SM debuffing abit higher resist values.
But the point being, check and compare the damagenumbers both against pugs with the old close quaters and exact same Class mechanic values and this almost exact powercreep from this video. Very immobile, squishy closecombat damagedealer with no sustain, mitigation, mobility boosts. Any slayer, choppa, wl would be close in damage output and bring more utility in these fights to make up for BW being a purebreed damagedealer and the damage numbers doesnt seem all that impressive, even against pugs:
https://youtu.be/9pvqSpABXrA?si=1c1Zshxjitf0Rv51&t=450

Only example I personally had against fighting 2-2-2 guildwarbands as i havnt streamed in years:
Mainly really showing this for the Damagenumbers outside of when affected by Bellow as it isnt as often these days.
4 years ago damage against guarded targets as we ran a control engineer trying to stagger the backline and kill frontline approach
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/661549354?t=00h00m18s

All of this had the exact same version of the class mechanic, my point being. Balance the overperforming abilities and the class mechanic is just fine. If you start touching something that universal, it will affect all aspects of the game for these classes and who knows how that will create new issues.
Rof was stacking and overtuned, got adjusted
Close Quaters tactic was too much, got changed.
What EXACTLY is overtuned on BW/Sorc atm that they need a nerf to both classes in Singletarget, Aoe, leveling, pve?
Last youtube video I saw of Evil's sorc in City, his DC never critted higher than his Morale 375 procs in a competitive 2-2-2 instance. Is that overpowered and needs to be turned down with a blanket nerf??

I believe you already know that answer as to why. So does everyone else who have been on the server the past year. There is no logic to it. The is no way to reason it out. There is no explanation. It’s the same reason several classes have been nerfed. It’s not all class balance. It’s the same reason the sc barriers are still up without any explanation. The balance team already said they had nothing to do with sc barriers. It is all because one person wants it that way.

[Tisaya]

In the current state of the game, other classes can rival it or even surpass.

That is the problem though isn't it? This class mechanic has been like this since live, other mdps classes get only +50% crit damage and they need to slot tactics to do this.

Many rpds classes were buffed over the years to be able to compete with BWs and Sorcs who have always been this strong. In my opinion most rpds classes are over tuned, I think a nerf could and should also be applied to at least SWs as well who have the most complete kit in the game by far (cant really make any claims about SH because I don't have one and I never fight them because I only play destro), and deal as much damage as sorcs and BWs

Everyone always dogs mythic about how many mistakes they made with the game. This mechanic has never been changed, are we really going to sit here and say that "yea the developers over at mythic got this mechanic exactly right, this is fine"?

Seems like you're missing the point. Why would any class have the need to 'compete' with BW and Sorc? They were made as ultimate glass canons. They are supposed to do the biggest damage in the game. If you want to do as much damage as them, feel free to give up your armor, charge, cc, heal debuff and suffer morale damage each time you use a skill.

[Caduceus]

Also where are you getting 2-3k damage from, if you hit someone 4 times with gloomburst + hor, into 2nd tick of hor and ID, each of these hits can easily crit 1k if not more, landing in two timestamps and each of these can also proc other damage effects, is more like 4k-6k.

The keyword in my post is 'effective' damage - because half of your damage is absorbed by Guard and/or Detaunt by default. And that's without taking into account other damage reduction and the constant stream of absorb shields your targets will be receiving. 2k-3k effective damage on target with quick burst rotations is a best-case scenario - usually it won't even register on the enemy's health bar.

Even losing morale I think being able to avoid a melee train entirely is more effective than saving morale just in case you need to break silence or slows with focused mind. You also have mage bolt to knock back if you need which is only a m1, can easily be used while fleeing.

You cannot cast M1 Mage Bolt after fleeing for the same reason you cannot cast M2 Focused Mind. Flee takes away all your morale. Using either Flee or Mage Bolt means you will not have M2 Focused Mind available, and that is your only real escape tool.

It just seems like people get so easily fixated on these disaster scenarios where you are dealing no damage and cant help yourself vs "competetive" teams, when I am quite sure there is much more counterplay than sorc and bw players would like to have others believe.

These aren't disaster scenarios. What I've described are basic things in 6v6.


If you don't care about competitive game modes and believe the game should be balanced around casual play in ORvR and SCs that's fine.
However, in that case there's no point in a long discussion, because then we disagree on balancing fundamentals.

But I'd appreciate if you do not second guess everything I'm saying if you have little to no experience with competitive settings.

Could you at least address the point I made regarding channels being stronger for ranged players due to how cone of fire works now? That has nothing to do with any of this?

Are you talking about the changes to how AoE radius and cones are calculated? As far as I am aware this has affected MDPS channels too.

[normanis]

nerfing bw/sorc is welcome. its make opurtunity for engi/magus in wb.
magus/engi pets should be instant without tactic slot sacrf.

I cant bother to add input any more because this is the true concerns of the EU playerbase and devs.

For the last 5 years balance seems to be centered around ranked, or EU warband gate push RvR balance. If you are single target, if you fall anywhere outside of these 2 demographics, you do not matter. I do not matter.

But for the sake of documenting protest.....sorc/bw has no auto attack. They have no pet damage. Their spells are dependent on not being disrupted, and frankly the damage is not great. It's only noticeable because of backload rotations, i.e. burst. It's 'Here I AM' damage. The majority of single target gameplay is killing players with this, that would die anyways. It is not effetive against groups, warbands, or support. Therefore this nerf is for AOE casters, not single target casters, so I can't speak on EU AOE warband balance. But I can say this destroys single target fans.

BW is utility heavy, and may be okay, but sorcs definitely need a healdebuff and knockdown to match BW in order to be playable if this change goes through.

magus need sacrefice tactic for instant pet( we have 4 tactics not unlimited) auto attack again need tactic (sh/engi/mdps like wh/witch) how many u seen in rvr sorc vs magus. sorc has very easy rotation in aoe magus also(but problem is u need pet and 20stacks to get full damage). bw need aoe knock down not aoe knock back similar to mara. u dont see many engis or magus in wb. (if we dont count bitterstones).
dots (engi/magus) with litle raw damage vs raw damage sorc/bw. in rvr

[normanis]

nerfing bw/sorc is welcome. its make opurtunity for engi/magus in wb.
magus/engi pets should be instant without tactic slot sacrf.

This means engi/magus will lose utility, mobility, heal, tankiness.... You know, all these things BW/Sorc sacrifice to have a very high damage. Right? ... Right?

how magus/engi loose all what u said if they can use instant pet summon without sacrefice tactic? bw and sorc sacrefice their hp only if they are 100 and without guard. all their ''fragile'' is easely blockable.
maby u run around without guard byt that question is not to me.