Classes shouldn't be balanced equally between faction mirrors

[M0rw47h]

Guys if you check stats you’ll notice order kill more then destruction since patch and are more effective as well.

Lions and masters even wo heals are consistently (over?)represented on top 10 killers. Pets are quite a lot better here on RoR and not as easy to dispose or slow as it used to be. Lets not push for further buffs please.

A good guess is that mobile and medium armoured WLs with better aoe (compared to live) will rule slayers and bws. Mostly based on the observation that no other class has gotten so much love attention by balancers.

Another quite reasonable bet is that BWs and Slayers wont have much love coming (since destruction as a whole is trailing).

Do you have a link to the stats? I do see wls being high on the killboard and in thewarcamp but it'd be nice to know how many of those are from small scale and roaming. And the thing about pet aoe dmg reduction is to make more gameplay types viable other than being forced into loner in large scale, you can argue even WH have more build diversity in skirmishes

and ofc this isn't to say to only buff order, my point is not to have a matter of buff one side over the other, i speak about order because it's the side i have experience with. I don't know about the state of marauder builds for example, i do know it's population significantly dropped tho

...but if pet won't die to AoE, then WL will have easy mode pull in large scale. You don't expect people to ST target 20 pets running around over players?

[Illuminati]

The solution to the problem isn't buff WL more (btw, WL pets were immune to AOE damage back in 2017-2019 until we discovered it in 6 mans and made noise about it. Guardian WLs roamed the land and nothing could stop them lol.

I think the solution is tweak slayer/chopper to be less squishy so Order can develop a front line and move away from the ranged/tank meta. I hope the team doesn't use the Ranged DPS patch to make ranged stronger in hopes of combating the Destro melee meta. That would be a big mistake.

[Tuffy]

The solution to the problem isn't buff WL more (btw, WL pets were immune to AOE damage back in 2017-2019 until we discovered it in 6 mans and made noise about it. Guardian WLs roamed the land and nothing could stop them lol.

I think the solution is tweak slayer/chopper to be less squishy so Order can develop a front line and move away from the ranged/tank meta. I hope the team doesn't use the Ranged DPS patch to make ranged stronger in hopes of combating the Destro melee meta. That would be a big mistake.

One thing is being immune and another is having 95%-ish aoe reduction, it means instead of dying in 2 seconds it dies in 10 if not taken care of

[Bozzax]

Guys if you check stats you’ll notice order kill more then destruction since patch and are more effective as well.

Lions and masters even wo heals are consistently (over?)represented on top 10 killers. Pets are quite a lot better here on RoR and not as easy to dispose or slow as it used to be. Lets not push for further buffs please.

A good guess is that mobile and medium armoured WLs with better aoe (compared to live) will rule slayers and bws. Mostly based on the observation that no other class has gotten so much love attention by balancers.

Another quite reasonable bet is that BWs and Slayers wont have much love coming (since destruction as a whole is trailing).

Do you have a link to the stats? I do see wls being high on the killboard and in thewarcamp but it'd be nice to know how many of those are from small scale and roaming. And the thing about pet aoe dmg reduction is to make more gameplay types viable other than being forced into loner in large scale, you can argue even WH have more build diversity in skirmishes

and ofc this isn't to say to only buff order, my point is not to have a matter of buff one side over the other, i speak about order because it's the side i have experience with. I don't know about the state of marauder builds for example, i do know it's population significantly dropped tho

Yes i have
Wh/we have nerfs inc is my bet

[Avernus]

Spoiler:

Guys if you check stats you’ll notice order kill more then destruction since patch and are more effective as well.

Lions and masters even wo heals are consistently (over?)represented on top 10 killers. Pets are quite a lot better here on RoR and not as easy to dispose or slow as it used to be. Lets not push for further buffs please.

A good guess is that mobile and medium armoured WLs with better aoe (compared to live) will rule slayers and bws. Mostly based on the observation that no other class has gotten so much love attention by balancers.

Another quite reasonable bet is that BWs and Slayers wont have much love coming (since destruction as a whole is trailing).

Do you have a link to the stats? I do see wls being high on the killboard and in thewarcamp but it'd be nice to know how many of those are from small scale and roaming. And the thing about pet aoe dmg reduction is to make more gameplay types viable other than being forced into loner in large scale, you can argue even WH have more build diversity in skirmishes

and ofc this isn't to say to only buff order, my point is not to have a matter of buff one side over the other, i speak about order because it's the side i have experience with. I don't know about the state of marauder builds for example, i do know it's population significantly dropped tho

...but if pet won't die to AoE, then WL will have easy mode pull in large scale. You don't expect people to ST target 20 pets running around over players?

It's as easy as an advice to interrupt mara when he is trying to pull you...

[M0rw47h]

Spoiler:

Do you have a link to the stats? I do see wls being high on the killboard and in thewarcamp but it'd be nice to know how many of those are from small scale and roaming. And the thing about pet aoe dmg reduction is to make more gameplay types viable other than being forced into loner in large scale, you can argue even WH have more build diversity in skirmishes

and ofc this isn't to say to only buff order, my point is not to have a matter of buff one side over the other, i speak about order because it's the side i have experience with. I don't know about the state of marauder builds for example, i do know it's population significantly dropped tho

...but if pet won't die to AoE, then WL will have easy mode pull in large scale. You don't expect people to ST target 20 pets running around over players?

It's as easy as an advice to interrupt mara when he is trying to pull you...

There is small, subtle difference.
Imagine Marauder in front attempting to pull you, he gets focused by 1 million and 1 order rDPS and dies.
Imagine WL pet running in front attempting to to pull you, he gets focused by 1 million 1 meatgrinder participants and dies.

Marauder dies, WL himself remains safe.

[footpatrol2]

This is kinda just some memory lane stuff. The game used to be very different with each class being fairly unique and not feeling Mirror'd.
Here is an old career builder on what classes used to look like. Most of it is not mirror'd. I believe this is from roughly patch 1.3.4.

For me I had the most fun when Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning had this gamestate.

As for this statement.

Both in tabletop and total war dwarves are an extremely defensive race, with orcs being the total opposite.

The game represented that all over the place.
Dwarves had several low defensive morale cycle's at their disposal, along with m4 defensive morale cycle's. Which represented their defensive playstyle.
Cycling mountain spirit, Cycling Gromril plating, Cycling armor plating
Runepriest could self rez then pick up group with (old) Grimnir's fury. (Morale bomb recovery) representing the dwarves resolve.
Dwarves could achieve alone the highest armor in the game. Regenerative shielding tactic (1056 tactic armor) + Mountain spirit cycle (1320 morale armor) + armor tactic for a total of about 3k armor to group. Destro didn't have access to that. Zealot's didn't have "warping the spirit tactic" back in patch 1.3.4.

The massive defensive morale cycle's didn't matter so much because you could still break it with coordinated morale bombs that being Single target assisted or AoE.

The race's had a lot more uniqueness and unique playstyle's for organized play in patch 1.3.4. Then everything started changing for more mirror'dness for the sake of balance.

Ironbreaker
https://web.archive.org/web/20090815120 ... .aspx?id=1
Slayer
https://web.archive.org/web/20090822063 ... .aspx?id=2
Runepriest
https://web.archive.org/web/20090822070 ... .aspx?id=3
Engineer
https://web.archive.org/web/20090815115 ... .aspx?id=4

Black Orc
https://web.archive.org/web/20090822070 ... .aspx?id=5
Choppa
https://web.archive.org/web/20090822063 ... .aspx?id=6
Shaman
https://web.archive.org/web/20090826040 ... .aspx?id=7
Squig Herder
https://web.archive.org/web/20090828142 ... .aspx?id=8

Witch hunter
https://web.archive.org/web/20090826042 ... .aspx?id=9
Knight
https://web.archive.org/web/20090815114 ... aspx?id=10
Bright Wizard
https://web.archive.org/web/20090819084 ... aspx?id=11
Warrior priest
https://web.archive.org/web/20090815110 ... aspx?id=12

Chosen
https://web.archive.org/web/20090815113 ... aspx?id=13
Marauder
https://web.archive.org/web/20090826040 ... aspx?id=14
Zealot
https://web.archive.org/web/20090819085 ... aspx?id=15
Magus
https://web.archive.org/web/20090815115 ... aspx?id=16

Swordmaster
https://web.archive.org/web/20090819085 ... aspx?id=17
Shadow Warrior
https://web.archive.org/web/20090822062 ... aspx?id=18
White Lion
https://web.archive.org/web/20090815111 ... aspx?id=19
Archmage
https://web.archive.org/web/20090815115 ... aspx?id=20

Blackguard
https://web.archive.org/web/20090826042 ... aspx?id=21
Witch Elf
https://web.archive.org/web/20090826040 ... aspx?id=22
Dok
https://web.archive.org/web/20090828142 ... aspx?id=23
Sorcerer
https://web.archive.org/web/20090831042 ... aspx?id=24

[Farrul]

The solution to the problem isn't buff WL more (btw, WL pets were immune to AOE damage back in 2017-2019 until we discovered it in 6 mans and made noise about it. Guardian WLs roamed the land and nothing could stop them lol.

I think the solution is tweak slayer/chopper to be less squishy so Order can develop a front line and move away from the ranged/tank meta. I hope the team doesn't use the Ranged DPS patch to make ranged stronger in hopes of combating the Destro melee meta. That would be a big mistake.

This has never been a question about buffing WL but fixing the broken class mechanic(pet). Lion pet is a disaster in RoR, it exists as a reminder that warhammer online/return of reckoning never was a finished product, it felt amateurish/archaic in some regards even compared to competitors of its time ( just like characters missing arrow animations and stuff like that but this of course being much, much much worse since it affects actual gameplay).

The scope of the discussion is like, in the direction of e.g marauder stances could not be used in warband fights because gift of monstrosity or gift of savagery kept dying all the time. Then it's not a balance issue, but a core issue affecting the whole class, i.e , welcome to the white lion class. As a solution to a fundamnetal mechanic dysfunction, was offered 1 tactic replacing the whole mechanic and making the class into a 3 button spam but workable again - without the actual class mechanic involved).

This has been so mishandled in RoR, seems no vision at all from devs to fix it or even recognice is as an issue whilst it is the elephant in the room to everone else with some experience of MMO games. Any modern game or not even modern game but updated games( like mentioned WoW) has shown how Pets can work just fine. They are not balance issues in those games, but just another aspect of the game. In RoR however this whole discussion is ridiculous, this should not be a discussion among players but something obvious for the developers to rework( yes rework from scratch, not buff or nerf a single ability here or there, a complete overhaul of the Pet class mechanic).

P.S.

FYI, in the deeper discussion we had in the past we're not talking about simple giving white lion pet AOE immunity and be done with it, no. White lion Pet and the whole mechanic behind it would be revisited, reworked, remolded into something which makes sense.

This could include tons of changes, including nerfing some aspect down that has been annoying, like too much speed of the pet( no reason for pet to have mount speed and no reason for a pet to have a Pull ability at all). A more rigid range-check on melee abilities. Much improved survivability. Removing tactics like speed training and making the base speed of the pet half of the current value 25% as core, the list of stuff that other games do well to make Pets functional in their games are many.

Of course it all fell on deaf ears since it seems there is no vision here or a real understanding to fix Pets on this server, unfortunately.

[Avernus]

There is small, subtle difference.
Imagine Marauder in front attempting to pull you, he gets focused by 1 million and 1 order rDPS and dies.
Imagine WL pet running in front attempting to to pull you, he gets focused by 1 million 1 meatgrinder participants and dies.

Marauder dies, WL himself remains safe.

Yes, WL is not supposed to be at 65ft from his target so you can't kill him. You can't stun or snare the pet (or even kill it outright). Completely safe.

And there is a mechanic that reduces marauder's damage each time the certain amount of aoe damage is thrown around (or just because someone used a few skills) for 15 seconds. You can avoid this mechanic by refusing from all your cc and making your damage too low to be relevant as good ST dps.

[M0rw47h]

There is small, subtle difference.
Imagine Marauder in front attempting to pull you, he gets focused by 1 million and 1 order rDPS and dies.
Imagine WL pet running in front attempting to to pull you, he gets focused by 1 million 1 meatgrinder participants and dies.

Marauder dies, WL himself remains safe.

Yes, WL is not supposed to be at 65ft from his target so you can't kill him. You can't stun or snare the pet (or even kill it outright). Completely safe.

As you noticed, you've already to choose, what you want to try:
a) ignore pet, try kill WL and get pulled regardless
b) ignore WL, focus on pet
In case of Marauder you always "focus/cc Marauder - problem solved", also Marauder can't boost his speed to pull you as TE cancels Charge. Pet should die easily to AoE. Unless Fetch gets replaced with TE mirror.

And there is a mechanic that reduces marauder's damage each time the certain amount of aoe damage is thrown around (or just because someone used a few skills) for 15 seconds. You can avoid this mechanic by refusing from all your cc and making your damage too low to be relevant as good ST dps.

We call this mechanic "cleanse Shatter Limbs, or screw you guys I'm going home".