[IronBreaker] Grumble An’ Mutter

[ponko22]

Thank you for your detailed response. My question is, why now?
There are many issues with the tank, such as its contribution to teammates being lower than other tanks due to being a WB, the need to choose a class, and the time it takes to effectively utilize buffs and debuffs, so why is it being nerfed only now because it's so tough? I'm worried about what will happen in the future.

[hogun]

Here is the most tricky part of this all. Very good question, but just as for any simple question without anykind of context its impossible to give clear short answer.
If by tougher you define everything any tank has then yeah, IB still toughest tank. Key factors for that is its mobility, M2, DR with decent avoidance. Selfhealing and absorb you mention wrong, as its not most defining factor.

15 or 10, regular, average joe who is not into succesfully doing highely organised competetive large scale combat versus x2/3 enemy numbers will not even notice anyhow. However tho, on those levels IB was absolutely unstoppable, no other tank came close for comparison. BO could be almost as mobile or better in some cases, BG could be almost as turtle or better in some cases, but none of them came close with such combination of DR, high avoidance, completely broken M2 and insane mobility which made IB uncatchable and unkillable if played and supported well. This was incredibly clear if you are playing in toptier 12-24 group against much bigger numbers.

As for regular gameplay, where average joe cant use IB tools properly (which is the case for like ~95%+ of IB population) in largescale combat it wont matter losing 5% DR. You will still die just as you did before.

What will this change actually achieve i cant tell and i believe none may.
Its kinda careful experiment and im absolutely sure balance group has absolutely no clue if it will achieve their obvious design vision of this.

Was this change actually required for whole game if we consider regular players and how they play? No, absolutely not. It changes nothing.

Was it justified to tonedown godtier IB for highest possible competitive gameplay? Yes, absolutely, it had no decent, same effort counterplay. Balance group tried to tonedown something that will not affect theoretical possibilities for same skilled ways to pilot IB so they cause least possible harm for randoms and decrease DR slightly. Supposed effect is that if IB happens to be actually caught (aint simple thing to do) it may die. Dunno if its gonna be achieved as nor none of mobility tools are harmed, nor M2 nor avoidance.

I don’t really know how to respond to this joke, my friend.
Either you’re trolling, or you don’t know KotBS.

No tank is stronger than KotBS and Chosen. Their auras, along with their tactics — ideally stacked with RR — make them the tankiest and, above all, the most useful tanks. They permanently buff and debuff in an area thanks to their auras, and on top of that they have the best crowd control in the game among tanks.

BO and SM are excellent tanks, and BG is, in my opinion, better than IB.
That’s my point of view, as a player who is part of the 95% of PUGs

Anyway, if the developers balance the game around 5% of players, then they clearly don’t understand anything. Those 5% of elitist players will always find ways to perform, regardless of class or balance changes. They will always find the optimal setup and will keep having fun performing at a high level.

On the other hand, the remaining 95% are the population that needs to be satisfied. Because without them, no PUGs, no casual players — and therefore no “trash” left to farm for the 5% elitists who feel very strong farming tourists.

[Fey]

Grudging Blow now added to the rotation. IB is just an ability bloated joke. Use twice as many abilities to gain half the effect.

[Culexus]

Just throwing in support for IB's to get Grumble An' Mutter back. Things that bring personality to classes are really important, GnM is missed.

Tanks need utility for the party, not healing for themselves (the only option you suggest is healing for OF/DP as well, because it would also have to apply to BG, but that could upset the solo/duo roam environment).
IB currently has a great AA damage skill for the party, and BG FTWK (useless except for zerg playstyle).

"great AA damage skill for the party". I used it only few times when I had chance to run with other 2h tank, and 2 melee DPS. Going for AA you give up everything else.

Spoiler:

https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... mt=1410&t=

It is useless in warband play, It is useless for solo and for duo, It´s useless with ranged dps party. Its usefull with 2xmelee dps + 1x2h tank combo. My damage with this build was so low (850-900 buffed strenght) that I rather run with SnB with this build. Your own armor debuff is low, Your damage outpoot is low, you have no on demand KD, you have no 10%dmg 5% parry tactic, you have no channel that is actualy your highest dps abbility to deal meaningfull asist damage.

While IB/BG has to play on piano, switch oathfriend and manage grudge, there is SM that debuff and buff at the same time while hit with proc or Knight that just walk in and debuff str, toughnes and/or resist passively and cannot be blocked or parry like all IB debuffs/buffs need to actualy HIT target. If IBs/BGs attacks are defended, there are no buffs for oathfriend and ST debuffs.

I´m not advocating GnM to come back, but both IB/BG classes need to be redesigned and put in line with rest of tank pack.

+25% AA damage for 20sec for the whole party is crazy strong in certain group setups. It's far better than GnM.

Although no one will ever admit it, the call for GnM to come back is purely for solo roaming.

Something your build does point out is that 2h IB has to spend 6 points in the middle tree to get a parry buff. This has a huge impact on build potential and diversity, as 2h IB is always going to be 6 points down just to start a 2h build. BO had the same issue when the parry tactic was put into the mid tree at the start of the balance rework, though thankfully they moved it. Swapping Oathbound and Runic Shield seems to be a logical step to giving 2h IB more build diversity and making BoG easier to fit into a build (although maybe still needing +2 mastery to work).

I use a similar build for my 6wl/3vic 2h BO.
RoR.builders - Black Orc

[hogun]

Tanks need utility for the party, not healing for themselves (the only option you suggest is healing for OF/DP as well, because it would also have to apply to BG, but that could upset the solo/duo roam environment).
IB currently has a great AA damage skill for the party, and BG FTWK (useless except for zerg playstyle).

"great AA damage skill for the party". I used it only few times when I had chance to run with other 2h tank, and 2 melee DPS. Going for AA you give up everything else.

Spoiler:

https://builder.returnofreckoning.com/c ... mt=1410&t=

It is useless in warband play, It is useless for solo and for duo, It´s useless with ranged dps party. Its usefull with 2xmelee dps + 1x2h tank combo. My damage with this build was so low (850-900 buffed strenght) that I rather run with SnB with this build. Your own armor debuff is low, Your damage outpoot is low, you have no on demand KD, you have no 10%dmg 5% parry tactic, you have no channel that is actualy your highest dps abbility to deal meaningfull asist damage.

While IB/BG has to play on piano, switch oathfriend and manage grudge, there is SM that debuff and buff at the same time while hit with proc or Knight that just walk in and debuff str, toughnes and/or resist passively and cannot be blocked or parry like all IB debuffs/buffs need to actualy HIT target. If IBs/BGs attacks are defended, there are no buffs for oathfriend and ST debuffs.

I´m not advocating GnM to come back, but both IB/BG classes need to be redesigned and put in line with rest of tank pack.

+25% AA damage for 20sec for the whole party is crazy strong in certain group setups. It's far better than GnM.

Although no one will ever admit it, the call for GnM to come back is purely for solo roaming.

Something your build does point out is that 2h IB has to spend 6 points in the middle tree to get a parry buff. This has a huge impact on build potential and diversity, as 2h IB is always going to be 6 points down just to start a 2h build. BO had the same issue when the parry tactic was put into the mid tree at the start of the balance rework, though thankfully they moved it. Swapping Oathbound and Runic Shield seems to be a logical step to giving 2h IB more build diversity and making BoG easier to fit into a build (although maybe still needing +2 mastery to work).

I use a similar build for my 6wl/3vic 2h BO.
RoR.builders - Black Orc

This is not a matter of admitting it or not. Of course having a self-heal is better for solo play, no one is denying that.
But as a guild master since the server opened, leading a Dwarf guild, we have always played in small groups, and there were many duos and trios that worked better with GnM — for example in a duo with an Engineer.

But obviously, out of frustration, Destruction players complained about the Engineer’s healing and the IB’s self-heal…
So let’s stop thinking only in terms of optimized 6-man teams. We don’t care about that. We like diversity, fun groups, even if they are unbalanced.

6-man teams don’t care about lore or fun — they will always pick the best tank in the best possible composition.
And that will never be the IB, because he has single-target buffs, and in most cases he has to hit his target to activate them and he need grundge !