Diversify the endgame

[Sadsong]

They could make a battle royale in the Isle of the Dead map. Everyone against everyone or maybe small parties of 3 - tank, dps and healer.

[Fey]

Tell the crew to push the Whopper button!

[Shogun4138]

I don't blob. We form smaller groups and do our own thing. Occasionally surf the zerg to help them but that's it. The mindless push pull isn't my guilds thing.

It would be nice to hunt other zones and sometimes we will build it to bring Order over to another zone. The old if you build it they will come idea. Or if they take a zone, run around and back cap flags so it forces them to separate. All the while blobs can smash face.

The side zones from TM and Isle of the dead would be a refreshing change to combat in. I like that idea.

[krumhur]

They could make a battle royale in the Isle of the Dead map. Everyone against everyone or maybe small parties of 3 - tank, dps and healer.

This won't solve the RvR situation, it will only disperse the already low population across more maps and play styles. The RvR lakes will still be riddled by blobbing, maybe there will be less people but they will still blob.
And having less people in the lakes is not what we want.

The game actually needs more people in the lakes, what it doesn't need is those people playing all together and forming mega warbands. Get people off the lakes and you will lose the appeal of open RvR which is the distinctive trademark of this game, in exchange for scenarios and battle royal maps which are over abused formats you can find in any other mmo.

[Martok]

This suggestion has been raised couple times before. They could introduce different kind of daily objectives and quests or progression system for different playstyles like solo, 6 man, scenarios encouraging these aspects of the game as well instead of BLOBBLOB and enjoy your crests.

Daily quest attached to Scenarios is a worthy idea, but such would not address the core issue underlying all of RvR in the game.

Nothing is unique. Nothing. No matter where you fight the rewards are the same. As a result, Cities are completely irrelevant, Forts are completely irrelevant (although people do them because they suffer the benefit of being fun), pushing zones is pointless except for the acquisition of crest and the idea of locking pairings falls into the category of 'whatever man.'

And over all of this beauty the Blob Rules.

[OceanSoul]

Change won't come by itself.

Solving the current situation requires leaving the path of least resistance which at the moment is blobbing: that's the path most players take because, as you said, it's the easiest way to get crests.

If there was a easier way to get crests, you could rest assured that people would surely follow the new path, but since there is not, people will keep on blobbing, unless the few who don't like blobbing actively do something. Or unless we wait and hope for a solution from the devs, for a problem which sooner or later will come back.

I think there are solutions, nothing extraordinary or revolutionary, but you need a bit of imagination. Unless, again, you want to rely on the devs.

The problem is that, even though I do not like blobbing, if there is only one open RvR zone with population and the enemy side blobs so hard that they leave you no option for WB vs WB fights, or any kind of balanced fights, there is absolutely nothing you can do.

Then people can say, “Well, change zone,” and you do that... and you spend 30 minutes in an empty zone with no opponents, because there is not even anyone on the other realm trying to take advantage of 400% AAO. You rank the zone up to 2 stars and pull a ram, even knowing that the server has 55% population from the opposing realm. For what? As soon as you deploy the ram, that whole blob will move to your map and wipe you without any difficulty. Then the blob fight simply moves to that zone, while the other two zones remain empty... so you are back to square one.

Without a campaign, there is no motivation to win zones; and with the unified currency system, and no exclusive rewards tied to specific content, there is no motivation for 90% of players to do anything other than blob.

It is clear that content-exclusive rewards work. How many people do PvE even though they do not enjoy it — myself included — just to unlock gear or weapons? That is clear proof that, while some people genuinely enjoy a certain type of content and will happily do it, there is also a large percentage of players who will only do it for the rewards.

And it is also clear that, for the whole system to work, both types of players need to participate in that content, even if only to ensure there are enough numbers for it to function properly.

I agree with you on description of the issue, I don't agree with you on the solution.

Content-exclusive rewards doesn't work, your very post shows that as a solution it makes people unhappy by forcing them to do things they don't want.
This is a game, it's meant to be fun, if content-exclusive rewards detract from that fun then it's not working.

Besides, what kind of content do you want to incentivise that will reduce the blobbing?
If you put dailies for sieging keeps, people will still blob to get those keeps.

One last thing: I see people on both sides complaining about the current situation, especially warband leaders, yet nobody is doing anything to solve it. Everyone is waiting for devs to find the correct solution, as always, but this is not a gamebreaking bug, it's a behaviour issue, and players can certainly do something to fix it.
Just to make it clear: people complain that the blobbing situation is out of hand, yet when the blob attacks a keep they are ready to support the siege.
Also, you say that if you were to change map you would find an empty one (and I agree with you 100%): what if all anti-blobbing warband leaders swapped map instead, leaving the blob to play PvDoor on some map while the rest of us go PvPing on some other place?

This is a very small server, it's a closed community, reputation is a thing here: reputable warband leaders know each other very well, just like PUG leaders are known etc.
It would take maybe a couple of hours to sit down in discord and agree on some common rules to help the situation and reduce the blobbing.
Yet we are here, waiting months for the devs to give us a solution which, I'm sure, will only be temporary: after a bit people will find the new path of least resistance, the best and easiest way to get crests, and we'll be back at the start.

One more thing: this is not a personal attack nor a critic to you Kpihuss, far from it. I appreciate the input you give with your posts and the way you convey your ideas. I'm just trying to adopt a different point of view and give a different input, for a problem which is making the game less fun for us all.

Players behavior comes from adaptation to or interaction with environment. You cant change behavior without changing incentives\environment\gameplay mechanics. Hazmy does 48m discord bands, what you could possibly do with it? You could argue with him a bit in the discord and guess what, he will continue to do whatever (a) the game allows him to (b) whatever he considers to be fun. What the hell could you do with a pug band being killed 5th time in a row and then decide to stick with other band? Its the only option they have to make the game a bit fun.

I strongly disagree with the everlasting argument about blobbing providing the most RR/crests. Are you guys ever participated in blobby evenings? Its the opposite of the most efficient farming strategy - the most anti climactic and non rewarding content this game has. You are right about blobs sometimes being a path of least resistance, but in terms of assembly/preparation/cross-realm or corss-wb communication, not in terms of RR/crests farming. And btw this is really meaningful thing, ie blobbing solves the real issue the game has besides providing epic fights some people like (Hazmy, for example).

What you really need to do is (a) provide incentives for org wbs to split (highly agentic, fast paced, decisions driven pvp environment) (b) provide the means to counter the blob by in-game mechanics (ie by certain combination of skills/items) (c) provide easily accessible pvp content that is fun to play (complete opposite of (a), the most brain dead, choppa brains content ever, that requires 0 assembly) (d) system that integrates all the above into realm-driven progression.

The main problem comes from development cycle being too long and decisions are made in a very slow manner by very closed group of people without any communication, based on the unknown reasons, or, what is worse, on personal preference of the devs, and without clearly communicated goals. This server requires a lot of fast paced (week long at most) A\B testing, community and data driven, transparent decision making process based on rules/principles, and open source crowd development to bump up the speed.

If its impossible to change dev cycle in a meaningful way, I'd say that its better to make blobbing more fun and engaging rather than to try to punish it or to get rid off of it. With the current pace, realm progression rework will take at least a year, while couple of simple m4 reworks could make blob fights much less of a passive waves riding without any hope to counter it, and introduce wb level tactical moves.

[krumhur]

The problem is that, even though I do not like blobbing, if there is only one open RvR zone with population and the enemy side blobs so hard that they leave you no option for WB vs WB fights, or any kind of balanced fights, there is absolutely nothing you can do.

Then people can say, “Well, change zone,” and you do that... and you spend 30 minutes in an empty zone with no opponents, because there is not even anyone on the other realm trying to take advantage of 400% AAO. You rank the zone up to 2 stars and pull a ram, even knowing that the server has 55% population from the opposing realm. For what? As soon as you deploy the ram, that whole blob will move to your map and wipe you without any difficulty. Then the blob fight simply moves to that zone, while the other two zones remain empty... so you are back to square one.

Without a campaign, there is no motivation to win zones; and with the unified currency system, and no exclusive rewards tied to specific content, there is no motivation for 90% of players to do anything other than blob.

It is clear that content-exclusive rewards work. How many people do PvE even though they do not enjoy it — myself included — just to unlock gear or weapons? That is clear proof that, while some people genuinely enjoy a certain type of content and will happily do it, there is also a large percentage of players who will only do it for the rewards.

And it is also clear that, for the whole system to work, both types of players need to participate in that content, even if only to ensure there are enough numbers for it to function properly.

I agree with you on description of the issue, I don't agree with you on the solution.

Content-exclusive rewards doesn't work, your very post shows that as a solution it makes people unhappy by forcing them to do things they don't want.
This is a game, it's meant to be fun, if content-exclusive rewards detract from that fun then it's not working.

Besides, what kind of content do you want to incentivise that will reduce the blobbing?
If you put dailies for sieging keeps, people will still blob to get those keeps.

One last thing: I see people on both sides complaining about the current situation, especially warband leaders, yet nobody is doing anything to solve it. Everyone is waiting for devs to find the correct solution, as always, but this is not a gamebreaking bug, it's a behaviour issue, and players can certainly do something to fix it.
Just to make it clear: people complain that the blobbing situation is out of hand, yet when the blob attacks a keep they are ready to support the siege.
Also, you say that if you were to change map you would find an empty one (and I agree with you 100%): what if all anti-blobbing warband leaders swapped map instead, leaving the blob to play PvDoor on some map while the rest of us go PvPing on some other place?

This is a very small server, it's a closed community, reputation is a thing here: reputable warband leaders know each other very well, just like PUG leaders are known etc.
It would take maybe a couple of hours to sit down in discord and agree on some common rules to help the situation and reduce the blobbing.
Yet we are here, waiting months for the devs to give us a solution which, I'm sure, will only be temporary: after a bit people will find the new path of least resistance, the best and easiest way to get crests, and we'll be back at the start.

One more thing: this is not a personal attack nor a critic to you Kpihuss, far from it. I appreciate the input you give with your posts and the way you convey your ideas. I'm just trying to adopt a different point of view and give a different input, for a problem which is making the game less fun for us all.

Players behavior comes from adaptation to or interaction with environment. You cant change behavior without changing incentives\environment\gameplay mechanics. Hazmy does 48m discord bands, what you could possibly do with it? You could argue with him a bit in the discord and guess what, he will continue to do whatever (a) the game allows him to (b) whatever he considers to be fun. What the hell could you do with a pug band being killed 5th time in a row and then decide to stick with other band? Its the only option they have to make the game a bit fun.

I strongly disagree with the everlasting argument about blobbing providing the most RR/crests. Are you guys ever participated in blobby evenings? Its the opposite of the most efficient farming strategy - the most anti climactic and non rewarding content this game has. You are right about blobs sometimes being a path of least resistance, but in terms of assembly/preparation/cross-realm or corss-wb communication, not in terms of RR/crests farming. And btw this is really meaningful thing, ie blobbing solves the real issue the game has besides providing epic fights some people like (Hazmy, for example).

What you really need to do is (a) provide incentives for org wbs to split (highly agentic, fast paced, decisions driven pvp environment) (b) provide the means to counter the blob by in-game mechanics (ie by certain combination of skills/items) (c) provide easily accessible pvp content that is fun to play (complete opposite of (a), the most brain dead, choppa brains content ever, that requires 0 assembly) (d) system that integrates all the above into realm-driven progression.

The main problem comes from development cycle being too long and decisions are made in a very slow manner by very closed group of people without any communication, based on the unknown reasons, or, what is worse, on personal preference of the devs, and without clearly communicated goals. This server requires a lot of fast paced (week long at most) A\B testing, community and data driven, transparent decision making process based on rules/principles, and open source crowd development to bump up the speed.

If its impossible to change dev cycle in a meaningful way, I'd say that its better to make blobbing more fun and engaging rather than to try to punish it or to get rid off of it. With the current pace, realm progression rework will take at least a year, while couple of simple m4 reworks could make blob fights much less of a passive waves riding without any hope to counter it, and introduce wb level tactical moves.

I agree with you on the solutions Devs could adopt, and on the lengthy times needed by Devs to realistically implement those solutions.
I also understand that Devs can't be blamed, this is a not for profit project, theoretically speaking they may be getting a huge portfolio out of this experience, but in reality, and from our pov (the players), they are still spending their time on a project without taking anything out of our wallets, so they can indeed take their time doing things. We are guests in their home basically.

The point of my post was in fact to raise a question: given that it will take time for Devs to fix the gameplay loop issues, assuming they even consider it a priority and assuming they will manage to find a good solution, what can we do in the meantime on our end, as players?

The server population is low, warband leaders are a fraction of that population, they mostly know each other: would it be too much to ask them to set some common "rules of engagement" to reduce blobbing on both sides?
Most of the population here is made of mature people who would probably accept some rules (like moving to maps where no blob is present) to get the gameplay they look for. Those who don't will be free to blob but also subject to be blobbed.

It's either that, or accept that Devs will maybe find a fix in the future: in the second case we should a) stop complaining, and b) wait for them to possibly ask for our feedback/ideas.

[OceanSoul]

I agree with you on description of the issue, I don't agree with you on the solution.

Content-exclusive rewards doesn't work, your very post shows that as a solution it makes people unhappy by forcing them to do things they don't want.
This is a game, it's meant to be fun, if content-exclusive rewards detract from that fun then it's not working.

Besides, what kind of content do you want to incentivise that will reduce the blobbing?
If you put dailies for sieging keeps, people will still blob to get those keeps.

One last thing: I see people on both sides complaining about the current situation, especially warband leaders, yet nobody is doing anything to solve it. Everyone is waiting for devs to find the correct solution, as always, but this is not a gamebreaking bug, it's a behaviour issue, and players can certainly do something to fix it.
Just to make it clear: people complain that the blobbing situation is out of hand, yet when the blob attacks a keep they are ready to support the siege.
Also, you say that if you were to change map you would find an empty one (and I agree with you 100%): what if all anti-blobbing warband leaders swapped map instead, leaving the blob to play PvDoor on some map while the rest of us go PvPing on some other place?

This is a very small server, it's a closed community, reputation is a thing here: reputable warband leaders know each other very well, just like PUG leaders are known etc.
It would take maybe a couple of hours to sit down in discord and agree on some common rules to help the situation and reduce the blobbing.
Yet we are here, waiting months for the devs to give us a solution which, I'm sure, will only be temporary: after a bit people will find the new path of least resistance, the best and easiest way to get crests, and we'll be back at the start.

One more thing: this is not a personal attack nor a critic to you Kpihuss, far from it. I appreciate the input you give with your posts and the way you convey your ideas. I'm just trying to adopt a different point of view and give a different input, for a problem which is making the game less fun for us all.

Players behavior comes from adaptation to or interaction with environment. You cant change behavior without changing incentives\environment\gameplay mechanics. Hazmy does 48m discord bands, what you could possibly do with it? You could argue with him a bit in the discord and guess what, he will continue to do whatever (a) the game allows him to (b) whatever he considers to be fun. What the hell could you do with a pug band being killed 5th time in a row and then decide to stick with other band? Its the only option they have to make the game a bit fun.

I strongly disagree with the everlasting argument about blobbing providing the most RR/crests. Are you guys ever participated in blobby evenings? Its the opposite of the most efficient farming strategy - the most anti climactic and non rewarding content this game has. You are right about blobs sometimes being a path of least resistance, but in terms of assembly/preparation/cross-realm or corss-wb communication, not in terms of RR/crests farming. And btw this is really meaningful thing, ie blobbing solves the real issue the game has besides providing epic fights some people like (Hazmy, for example).

What you really need to do is (a) provide incentives for org wbs to split (highly agentic, fast paced, decisions driven pvp environment) (b) provide the means to counter the blob by in-game mechanics (ie by certain combination of skills/items) (c) provide easily accessible pvp content that is fun to play (complete opposite of (a), the most brain dead, choppa brains content ever, that requires 0 assembly) (d) system that integrates all the above into realm-driven progression.

The main problem comes from development cycle being too long and decisions are made in a very slow manner by very closed group of people without any communication, based on the unknown reasons, or, what is worse, on personal preference of the devs, and without clearly communicated goals. This server requires a lot of fast paced (week long at most) A\B testing, community and data driven, transparent decision making process based on rules/principles, and open source crowd development to bump up the speed.

If its impossible to change dev cycle in a meaningful way, I'd say that its better to make blobbing more fun and engaging rather than to try to punish it or to get rid off of it. With the current pace, realm progression rework will take at least a year, while couple of simple m4 reworks could make blob fights much less of a passive waves riding without any hope to counter it, and introduce wb level tactical moves.

I agree with you on the solutions Devs could adopt, and on the lengthy times needed by Devs to realistically implement those solutions.
I also understand that Devs can't be blamed, this is a not for profit project, theoretically speaking they may be getting a huge portfolio out of this experience, but in reality, and from our pov (the players), they are still spending their time on a project without taking anything out of our wallets, so they can indeed take their time doing things. We are guests in their home basically.

The point of my post was in fact to raise a question: given that it will take time for Devs to fix the gameplay loop issues, assuming they even consider it a priority and assuming they will manage to find a good solution, what can we do in the meantime on our end, as players?

The server population is low, warband leaders are a fraction of that population, they mostly know each other: would it be too much to ask them to set some common "rules of engagement" to reduce blobbing on both sides?
Most of the population here is made of mature people who would probably accept some rules (like moving to maps where no blob is present) to get the gameplay they look for. Those who don't will be free to blob but also subject to be blobbed.

It's either that, or accept that Devs will maybe find a fix in the future: in the second case we should a) stop complaining, and b) wait for them to possibly ask for our feedback/ideas.

Its not like its too much to ask for some rules, its just any agreement will be very fragile. Its a pvp game, people get salty\tilted all the time, so naturally any agreement will be ruined by the first drama\heated interaction, which happens almost daily. Btw unspoken agreement is already in place, most of the guild claims they don't like blobbing and that they are trying to avoid it as hard as they could. Hazmy is the only one to my knowledge who is deliberately and consistently has being stacking 2 wbs recently. The rest of the stacking\blobbing seems to be happening naturally - because of the game being the way it is. Blobbing is much more fun than roaming empty zone or dying non stop to the only enemy wb in the zone because your stack is lacking something (major city sc issue).

As for development of the game, i think that making the whole project open to contributions and as transparent as it possibly could be - is the only way to survive, since subscription option (or any revenue) is not possible due to copyright issues.

[deanmclean]

They need pop capped RvR lakes.

I don't think bringing back the campaign would help all that much.

[kpihuss]

Well, we all know that the blob is the least effective way to level up and get war crests; and I don't think anyone doubts that.

But it's the easiest way to do it, even if it takes more time. And considering that this is a game where most of us are over 40 years old on average, and we get home tired, what we want when we play is simplicity and ease, not efficiency that will tire us out even more mentally.

If you go alone, a party of 6 will catch you and kill you, so the easiest thing to do is go with a group of 6; then your group of 6 will get wiped out by a warband of 24, so the next step is to join a warband of 24. Then a blob will overwhelm you, so you'll join the blob on your side, just to easily get some War Crests and Renown.