Nerf WH/WE into the ground

[Shieldslam]

Like others have said, they disengage and leave them alone... much like regen tanks. When I play my WL i refuse to fight them too. Nothing the WE can do.

Nothing the WE can do, huh? Regen tanks you can disengage because they can't catch you (again) but WE has a slowing leap which also, for some reason, now resets itself. On top of that throwing dagger now slows during rootbreak. You USED to be able to disengage them before the patch but now instead of 1 leap you have 2 to deal with and they don't require to be used while stealthed and the game is not made for that. If you're a healer for regular dps you simply do not have the CC or resources to get them off you. Besides that, a regen Tank you can see running towards you and decide whether you want to fight or not, WE immediately starts off next to you leaving you no choice.
The reason WH is acceptable despite such high burst is simply because once you knock them away they are gone, that has ALWAYS been their weakpoint and can be used to counter them. Magical dots, absorb tactic, stealth, etc. are their own issue but the new leap has to be reverted so at least if you don't want to fight them you aren't forced to as currently WE is the only class in the game capable of this. But at the end we all know nothing will happen so we are practically arguing over nothing and instead have to accept how it is.

[Lescargo]

guys when you say "skill issue" you need to post your order killboard so we can all check how ez you can beat the bis def/regen witch elves around in 1v1.

Are you sticking around to fight them?

Like others have said, they disengage and leave them alone... much like regen tanks. When I play my WL i refuse to fight them too. Nothing the WE can do.

But nah, you want easy meat no matter what spec.

As a solo tank, I already have my share of classes within the trinity that I simply can't kill—namely, healers.

DPS players, on the other hand, are supposed to be able to kill healers easily; if they spec as tanks and fail to do so, that’s their problem.

But explain this to me: why is a fight against a stealth DPS so complicated for a tank now, when a few patches ago it was a walk in the park? Tanks are supposed to counter DPS. Why has killing them become so difficult?

Back when I made my video, I thought it was absurd for a tank to win 1v2s against Witch Elves so easily—an adjustment was definitely needed.
However, since the DPS patch, defensive Witch Elves have become far too powerful; they can almost beat a BiS solo-spec tank in a 1v1.

As I explained, DPS—and specifically stealth classes specced for defense—aren't supposed to beat tanks in a 1v1; that’s basic trinity logic. The problem is that Def Witch Elves still deal way too much damage that bypasses defenses—what with attacks that completely ignore armor, corporeal damage, Toughness debuffs, and so on.

Something isn't right here, and it needs a fix.

And don't tell me I'm looking for easy meat bro, really; I'm a tank with 1,300 solo kills. If I wanted easy meat, I would've rolled a stealth class play a gank grp OR played my tank in a warband.

[Krima]

Agree nerfing WB to be physical doesnt feel like the way to go, its thematic and final talents should be reasonably useful. I think any changes need to be much smaller steps, for me, the following would be reasonable:

* 3s ICD on kiss procs.
* Wracking Pains switched to physical.
* Daggers normalised to 2.2 speed or higher.

Still leaves regen / absorb and auto attack bonus stacking viable, but tones down frequency of proc heals/dmg. Wracking Pains also a slight dps nerf.

See how it performs and iterate if needed.

I personally disagree with not addressing small man performance, for years it was WL, then AM/Sham, then def WE, having 1-2 classes dominate solo play has resulted in the solo scene drying up a bit, far harder to find a decent fight nowadays compared to 5-6 years ago imo.

*3s ICD on kiss procs. That's a huge nerf to the DPS spec and the core mechanic of the class. The way it is now is perfectly fine.

*Wracking Pains switched to physical. This feels weird. The tree is already focused on poison and weakening effects, so it has good synergy. All of a sudden we have a physical DoT mixed with corporeal damage skills? The way I see it now is: Carnage = AoE, Suffering = corporeal damage/debuffs, Treachery = physical damage/armor penetration.

*Daggers normalised to 2.2 speed or higher. I disagree with this as well. Daggers should be the fastest weapons in the game, and there should be a range of attack speeds. Some builds benefit from slower daggers, while others prefer faster hits. I was actually pleasantly surprised when the Bloodlord dagger was changed to 3.0 speed—it fits the build I'm playing really well since it's focused on bursting targets down with that 1 GCD burst. I'd rather follow the fantasy of the game, where daggers are the fastest weapons. Why should daggers have the same speed as axes or swords?

Way better to keep it simple. If everyone is complaining about one specific spec that's becoming cancerous, don't overhaul the entire class—just go straight to the source of the problem. There's such a thing as tuning things down, and I think RoR should do that much more often. Creating new mechanics and redesigning skills only adds more room for bugs.

Regen WE is OP? Then why change multiple class mechanics and risk hurting the DPS spec instead of simply toning down what actually makes the defensive regen build so strong?

Kiss of Doom: 100% healing → 90% → if still too strong, 80% or even 70%. (No impact on the DPS spec.)
Sacrifice's Reward: 600 → 500 → 450. (No impact on the DPS spec.)

Those are small balance adjustments that don't require completely reworking Witchbrew, adding an ICD to Kiss procs, and so on.

Again, the defensive regen WE is a niche subclass/build that has no place in 90% of the game's content.

[Bergbart]

Believe me, I'd love to kill cloth-wearing characters and healers in 3 GCs like I used to, but that's just not how it works here.
As a full DPS, you'll get spammed with dots, then disenabled, kicked, and slowed—and then laughed at.
Unless you have stealth and can disappear.

[nat3s]

Agree nerfing WB to be physical doesnt feel like the way to go, its thematic and final talents should be reasonably useful. I think any changes need to be much smaller steps, for me, the following would be reasonable:

* 3s ICD on kiss procs.
* Wracking Pains switched to physical.
* Daggers normalised to 2.2 speed or higher.

Still leaves regen / absorb and auto attack bonus stacking viable, but tones down frequency of proc heals/dmg. Wracking Pains also a slight dps nerf.

See how it performs and iterate if needed.

I personally disagree with not addressing small man performance, for years it was WL, then AM/Sham, then def WE, having 1-2 classes dominate solo play has resulted in the solo scene drying up a bit, far harder to find a decent fight nowadays compared to 5-6 years ago imo.

*3s ICD on kiss procs. That's a huge nerf to the DPS spec and the core mechanic of the class. The way it is now is perfectly fine.

*Wracking Pains switched to physical. This feels weird. The tree is already focused on poison and weakening effects, so it has good synergy. All of a sudden we have a physical DoT mixed with corporeal damage skills? The way I see it now is: Carnage = AoE, Suffering = corporeal damage/debuffs, Treachery = physical damage/armor penetration.

*Daggers normalised to 2.2 speed or higher. I disagree with this as well. Daggers should be the fastest weapons in the game, and there should be a range of attack speeds. Some builds benefit from slower daggers, while others prefer faster hits. I was actually pleasantly surprised when the Bloodlord dagger was changed to 3.0 speed—it fits the build I'm playing really well since it's focused on bursting targets down with that 1 GCD burst. I'd rather follow the fantasy of the game, where daggers are the fastest weapons. Why should daggers have the same speed as axes or swords?

Way better to keep it simple. If everyone is complaining about one specific spec that's becoming cancerous, don't overhaul the entire class—just go straight to the source of the problem. There's such a thing as tuning things down, and I think RoR should do that much more often. Creating new mechanics and redesigning skills only adds more room for bugs.

Regen WE is OP? Then why change multiple class mechanics and risk hurting the DPS spec instead of simply toning down what actually makes the defensive regen build so strong?

Kiss of Doom: 100% healing → 90% → if still too strong, 80% or even 70%. (No impact on the DPS spec.)
Sacrifice's Reward: 600 → 500 → 450. (No impact on the DPS spec.)

Those are small balance adjustments that don't require completely reworking Witchbrew, adding an ICD to Kiss procs, and so on.

Again, the defensive regen WE is a niche subclass/build that has no place in 90% of the game's content.

Daggers were normalised to 2.2 speed in the last patch, they just missed 2 e.g. look at Beast Within was 1.6 speed, now 2.2. Not seeing the argument to leave a couple outside of this change, feels inconsistent.

Yep can get behind Kiss and tactic alternative changes though, but if you don't touch proc rate or 1.6 daggers, you can still stack 85% auto attack haste for high damage/healing, I don't think it would be enough personally.