[PTS] Combustion & Dark magic

[afonu111]

Just don’t play any profession that is weakened. DPS healers will definitely be everywhere in this patch. No one will play healers by then. I wonder how many people will play RVR battles!

[what63]

Everyone always dogs mythic about how many mistakes they made with the game. This mechanic has never been changed, are we really going to sit here and say that "yea the developers over at mythic got this mechanic exactly right, this is fine"?

Counter question, but if the classes havnt seen any changes since the last added gear powerspikes in
- 2020 city sieges sovereign gear added
- land of the dead accesories
- Ability rework earlier this year indirect change to resist debuffs with SM debuffing all resist

Then why now, suddenly 4 years after latest big gear powerspike and no forum posts, no ror discord mass whine, no "omg i got oneshotted" comments from new players not grasping backloaded timestamps, why now. Why is it NOW with almost no changes for such a long time that the classes with no big uproar is suddenly deemed too strong?!

I cant really make any claims as to why now vs before. My stance is that this has always been too strong, I griped about this during this server's infancy when vanquisher was BiS and I cant seem to find those posts any more. I'm just glad to see this being discussed again

What I would argue is that the nerf to global cooldowns which used to allow melees to hit abilities 1.15s after their previous ability as opposed to always 1.5s, has been a significant nerf to melees and has more or less not affected any class that relies on abilities with cast times or channels for dealing damage. These abilities being sear, gloomburst, fireball barrage, hand of ruin, withering heat.

The fact that your enemies are very unlikely to be able to step outside of your cone of fire while channeling makes burst with channel abilities more effective for casters than for melees.

Global cooldowns continue to cool down as you are casting or channeling and this allows ranged players to continue to stack timestamps for burst using these abilities (wait for a channel tick and use another instant cast simultaneously) the same as they always have where melees are now forced to slow the pace of their abilities.


Also to one of your previous points about absorbs and not being able to crit players with absorbs -- I'm quite sure that on live absorbs applied no mitigation at all (none from armor, resistance or toughness), I'm not even confident that they prevented crits on live. I distinctly remember rah-nut (3600 absorb trinket) being chewed through instantly (was still useful because it required no gcd).

If nerfing absorbs is what it takes for people to be able to swallow the pill of nerfing combusion / dark magic I'm for it, because they are an insanely strong counter to burst and are essentially negative 2000 damage (if you factor in the fact that they prevent crits) to a player in a single instant cast GCD.

The GCD change significantly affected SW, SH, Sorc and BW. SW/SH because most of their casts are either instant or 1 second casts, so it's far more painful to apply and maintain dots, and their short/instant casts loose just as much as melee instant casts. BW/Sorc suffer the same issue in terms of application of their backloaded burst rotation, which on top of being slower, is also far looser. This also applied to the direct damage portion of their rotation, as sear into nova for example has additonal latency between them, and further a followup FBB for example also gets added latency. The time to react and counter by means of detaunts and stuff like absorbs was increased by a fair margin, along with ease of timing hardcasted heals to land between damage ticks. Ranged channels not being affected is a fair thing to bring up, but ranged channels are also universally stationary casts for one, but also on the whole very mid on the magic side of things with few exceptions. Another thing you keep bringing up is various short rotations- which do indeed exist and are used frequently in RvR to get contribution and whenever long rotation is not an option, but fact is that they still do not possess the ability to deal significant sustained damage, and any attempt at doing so delays your next opportunity for a full rotation to provide a short window of lesser instant burst in the moment at best. It's the right thing to do on occasion, but comes with significant cost.

As for being willing to nerf absorbs to make the mechanic nerf go down smoother, absolute insanity. It's fine to nerf something purely because of a big number, without considering what the number multiplies, purely for the sake of making it a smaller more palatable number, while in reality MASSIVELY buffing said number by removing one of the biggest counters? I mean, yeah.......

[Tisaya]

They have straight up murdered the archetype

No - the archetype was straight up murdering everything just as usual with its guarded bomb squad nonsense in praag earlier today. "Nerf" hasnt made a jot of difference.

This is simply isn't true. Sorc/BW couldn't do anything that other dps class couldn't do. And the nerf does make a lot of difference, as it's 30% of potential crit damage loss.

[leftayparxoun]

This is simply isn't true. Sorc/BW couldn't do anything that other dps class couldn't do. And the nerf does make a lot of difference, as it's 30% of potential crit damage loss.

From earlier on in this thread:

How much that 15% in numbers?

Using a conservative example of 100 Dark Magic/Combustion Sorc/BW with Sov crit dmg bonus and 65% magical crit chance, the (crit-averaged) damage loss is:

• vs enemies with 10% chance to be crit: 1 - (1+0.75*1.60)/(1+0.75*1.45) = 1 - 2.20/2.09 = 5.4% damage loss

• vs enemies with 0% chance to be crit: 1 - (1+0.65*1.60)/(1+0.65*1.45) = 1 - 2.04/1.94 = 5% damage loss

• vs enemies with -10% chance to be crit: 1 - (1+0.55*1.60)/(1+0.55*1.45) = 1 - 1.88/1.80 = 4.6% damage loss

• vs enemies with -20% chance to be crit: 1 - (1+0.45*1.60)/(1+0.45*1.45) = 1 - 1.72/1.65 = 4.1% damage loss

So overall between 4 and 5.5% damage loss on average.

Loss could be a bit bigger in certain pre-sov builds, but not above 7% for sure.

EDIT: Maximum crit damage loss at maximum career Dark Magic/Combustion happens when crit damage bonuses are at the lowest (i.e. no crit damage bonus from gear/procs and crit lowroll). It can also be easily calculated:

• Before: damage on crit = damage * (1 + (1 + 0.35) ) = damage * 2.35

• After: damage on crit = damage * (1 + (0.85 + 0.35) ) = damage * 2.20

Meaning that the absolute largest dmg loss in a crit due to the change (at max career resource) is:
1 - 2.20/2.35 = 6.4%

[Tisaya]

This is simply isn't true. Sorc/BW couldn't do anything that other dps class couldn't do. And the nerf does make a lot of difference, as it's 30% of potential crit damage loss.

From earlier on in this thread:

How much that 15% in numbers?

Using a conservative example of 100 Dark Magic/Combustion Sorc/BW with Sov crit dmg bonus and 65% magical crit chance, the (crit-averaged) damage loss is:

• vs enemies with 10% chance to be crit: 1 - (1+0.75*1.60)/(1+0.75*1.45) = 1 - 2.20/2.09 = 5.4% damage loss

• vs enemies with 0% chance to be crit: 1 - (1+0.65*1.60)/(1+0.65*1.45) = 1 - 2.04/1.94 = 5% damage loss

• vs enemies with -10% chance to be crit: 1 - (1+0.55*1.60)/(1+0.55*1.45) = 1 - 1.88/1.80 = 4.6% damage loss

• vs enemies with -20% chance to be crit: 1 - (1+0.45*1.60)/(1+0.45*1.45) = 1 - 1.72/1.65 = 4.1% damage loss

So overall between 4 and 5.5% damage loss on average.

Loss could be a bit bigger in certain pre-sov builds, but not above 7% for sure.

EDIT: Maximum crit damage loss at maximum career Dark Magic/Combustion happens when crit damage bonuses are at the lowest (i.e. no crit damage bonus from gear/procs and crit lowroll). It can also be easily calculated:

• Before: damage on crit = damage * (1 + (1 + 0.35) ) = damage * 2.35

• After: damage on crit = damage * (1 + (0.85 + 0.35) ) = damage * 2.20

Meaning that the absolute largest dmg loss in a crit due to the change (at max career resource) is:
1 - 2.20/2.35 = 6.4%

What I mean is that most BW's on the server aren't BiS. While the nerf lowered BiS BW's crit damage to 100% instead of 115%, for most BW disperency between potential maximum pre-nerf damage and what they have now is 30% crit damage, not 15%

And yes, this nerf was absolutely uncalled for and ruined the archetype across the board. Meanwhile, Shamans have been a menace for years but get a free pass. Makes you think about how the 'balance process' works. Almost like if balance is when you nerf classes that kill you in the game while buffing your favorite class.

[leftayparxoun]

This is simply isn't true. Sorc/BW couldn't do anything that other dps class couldn't do. And the nerf does make a lot of difference, as it's 30% of potential crit damage loss.

From earlier on in this thread:

.
.
.
Maximum crit damage loss at maximum career Dark Magic/Combustion happens when crit damage bonuses are at the lowest (i.e. no crit damage bonus from gear/procs and crit lowroll). It can also be easily calculated:

• Before: damage on crit = damage * (1 + (1 + 0.35) ) = damage * 2.35

• After: damage on crit = damage * (1 + (0.85 + 0.35) ) = damage * 2.20

Meaning that the absolute largest dmg loss in a crit due to the change (at max career resource) is:
1 - 2.20/2.35 = 6.4%

What I mean is that most BW's on the server aren't BiS. While the nerf lowered BiS BW's crit damage to 100% instead of 115%, for most BW disperency between potential maximum pre-nerf damage and what they have now is 30% crit damage, not 15%

And yes, this nerf was absolutely uncalled for and ruined the archetype across the board. Meanwhile, Shamans have been a menace for years but get a free pass. Makes you think about how the 'balance process' works. Almost like if balance is when you nerf classes that kill you in the game while buffing your favorite class.

You may be misunderstanding the damage formula for how crit damage is calculated. So let me explain in detail:

• When you roll a crit, the damage you would otherwise do is increased by the percentage of your crit damage. By default this ranges between 35% and 55% and, with an equal probability for all values in that range, the average default crit damage bonus comes out at (35+55)/2 = 45%.

• BWs and Sorcs, similarly to other classes, have ways to boost their critical damage bonus. These 2 classes gain 85% crit damage bonus at max resources, which was formerly 100%. They also have crit damage bonuses on gear like 4 pc Sov and 4 pc Onslaught sets. All of these are additive to the base crit damage bonus function (uniform distribution between 35% and 55%)

• When examining the calculation of damage for a specific crit roll, we can write down the crit damage modifier as:
  f(r, x) = 1 + r + x
  where r is the random value we rolled between 0.35 and 0.55 and x is the crit damage bonus we have from other sources.
  Let's transform it by saying r + x = u. Now:
  f(u) = 1 + u

• The damage loss function of a crit between this patch and the previous one (at max resources) with respect to the original mechanic can be written down as:
  g(u) =1 - f(u-0.15)/f(u)
  substituting f, we get:
  g(u) =1 - (1 + u - 0.15)/(1 + u)
  g(u) = 0.15/(1+u)
  For u taking always positive values (r + x), we know that g(u) is monotonically decreasing along with u.
  This means that the maximum value g(u) takes, i.e. the biggest damage loss on crit, happens when u is minimum.

• u = r + x, with both r and x being non-negative
  Minimum u value is therefore achieved when both r and x take their minimum values.
  • r minimum value is a crit lowroll of 0.35 (or 35%)
  • x minimum value (for max resources) is having just the crit dmg bonus from that, 1 (or 100% before nerf) and nothing else like Sov or Onslaught 4pc bonus. This means that biggest dmg loss on crit also happens on non-bis builds
  In total, minimum u value is:
  0.35 + 1 = 1.35

• We are now ready to calculate the absolute largest damage drop in a crit due to the nerf:
  g(u)max = g(1.35) = 0.15/(1 + 1.35) = 0.15/2.35 = 0.0638
  
  Meaning that the maximum damage loss in the worst case scenario is 6.38%

[Tisaya]

From earlier on in this thread:


What I mean is that most BW's on the server aren't BiS. While the nerf lowered BiS BW's crit damage to 100% instead of 115%, for most BW disperency between potential maximum pre-nerf damage and what they have now is 30% crit damage, not 15%

And yes, this nerf was absolutely uncalled for and ruined the archetype across the board. Meanwhile, Shamans have been a menace for years but get a free pass. Makes you think about how the 'balance process' works. Almost like if balance is when you nerf classes that kill you in the game while buffing your favorite class.

You may be misunderstanding the damage formula for how crit damage is calculated. So let me explain in detail:

• When you roll a crit, the damage you would otherwise do is increased by the percentage of your crit damage. By default this ranges between 35% and 55% and, with an equal probability for all values in that range, the average default crit damage bonus comes out at (35+55)/2 = 45%.

• BWs and Sorcs, similarly to other classes, have ways to boost their critical damage bonus. These 2 classes gain 85% crit damage bonus at max resources, which was formerly 100%. They also have crit damage bonuses on gear like 4 pc Sov and 4 pc Onslaught sets. All of these are additive to the base crit damage bonus function (uniform distribution between 35% and 55%)

• When examining the calculation of damage for a specific crit roll, we can write down the crit damage modifier as:
  f(r, x) = 1 + r + x
  where r is the random value we rolled between 0.35 and 0.55 and x is the crit damage bonus we have from other sources.
  Let's transform it by saying r + x = u. Now:
  f(u) = 1 + u

• The damage loss function of a crit between this patch and the previous one (at max resources) with respect to the original mechanic can be written down as:
  g(u) =1 - f(u-0.15)/f(u)
  substituting f, we get:
  g(u) =1 - (1 + u - 0.15)/(1 + u)
  g(u) = 0.15/(1+u)
  For u taking always positive values (r + x), we know that g(u) is monotonically decreasing along with u.
  This means that the maximum value g(u) takes, i.e. the biggest damage loss on crit, happens when u is minimum.

• u = r + x, with both r and x being non-negative
  Minimum u value is therefore achieved when both r and x take their minimum values.
  • r minimum value is a crit lowroll of 0.35 (or 35%)
  • x minimum value (for max resources) is having just the crit dmg bonus from that, 1 (or 100% before nerf) and nothing else like Sov or Onslaught 4pc bonus. This means that biggest dmg loss on crit also happens on non-bis builds
  In total, minimum u value is:
  0.35 + 1 = 1.35

• We are now ready to calculate the absolute largest damage drop in a crit due to the nerf:
  g(u)max = g(1.35) = 0.15/(1 + 1.35) = 0.15/2.35 = 0.0638
  
  Meaning that the maximum damage loss in the worst case scenario is 6.38%

So, the devs butchered the BW/Sorc class mechanics because of 6.38% damage? Don't you think they should have left it alone if it's so insignificant?

[leftayparxoun]

So, the devs butchered the BW/Sorc class mechanics because of 6.38% damage? Don't you think they should have left it alone if it's so insignificant?

I wouldn't personally call it "butchered", but regardless; here is the official reasoning provided alongside the patchnotes:


And if I were to place myself in their shoes, a slight Sorc/BW nerf would either have to be in the form of reducing ability numbers across the board (or at least in commonly used skills), or by nerfing the class mechanic by a small amount. The latter, while less elegant, makes more sense to me due to saving up development time (punching in a couple of numbers instead of dozens) and also because it avoids bugs popping up in multiple places.
A gear-related nerf is not a good choice due to it becoming partially reversed by the discovery of a new BIS by the community.

[Aluviya]

I am on the edge with the current patch notes, and we can calculate as precisely as possible or cope with half-baked justifications. But from my point of view, simply put, this change is plainly unfair and unjustified, as both classes:

• Were already hit hard by the GCD change: This affected their damage output similarly to all DPS classes that lost their edge because they depend on a timed rotation (such as ST WL/WH) rather than sustained damage.

• Have significantly lower survivability: Compared to any other RDPS in the game, these classes struggle to stay alive in combat. Even semi-DPS classes like Shaman and AM perform much better in the current sustain damage meta. It's worth noting that the only group that ever played a ranged setup successfully in Groupranked eventually opted for DPS Shaman over Sorc.

• Offer significantly less utility: They have far less utility than any other RDPS, making them less versatile in various scenarios—the only thing these classes have always excelled at is damage on point rotation, nothing else.

• Have the most obvious rotation in the game: Their rotations are extremely predictable, with clear visual or sound indicators, making them easily cleansable or avoidable through line of sight. The current cleansing system, especially on Order, is well-suited for cleansing Sorc rotation first.

• Are perceived as imbalanced by PuG players: From a solo player's perspective, they seem imbalanced due to "high numbers," but in reality, any decently played ST DPS, whether ranged or melee, can deliver far more damage within the same GCD count thanks to auto-attacks, pet damage, armor penetration, or resistance ignorance. But this is also the same community that has been whining about DPS Shamans and AMs for years.

• Are heavily dependent on all skills hitting and critting: This is something that many people overlook. Most of their skills deal laughable base damage if they don't crit or if they are disrupted. Even a BiS Sorc or BW still needs additional anti-disrupt sources to have a somewhat reliable rotation to compete with most classes that deliver good sustained damage without being strictly dependent on a rotation.

• In ORvR, require far more support than any other AoE DPS: Due to their low armor and lack of defensive morales that most AoE-DPS classes have.

• Have apparently a fanclub that overrates the resistance debuff they get for slotting a tactic: People often assume you'd spec for the maximum value possible, which is simply wrong as you can't do that with regular Sorc/BW builds. Meanwhile, many other classes have a free AoE resistance debuff or debuffs that are actually significant in the big picture, like the corporeal resistance debuff from Blorc, which works well with mid-tree WE builds (which is probably now the best time to play alongside the changes to Zealot Marks). Even here, the biggest numbers you'd ever see with a Sorc for example would be alongside with Talon, which is one of the imbalancing elements in the context (that Order still doesn't have) and has nothing to do with the class itself.

• Have a fanclub, led by a certain streamer, that exaggerates the overall impact of both classes: They never discuss the downsides, as they have never played these classes themselves while also showing how to outplay the classes still making it look like it was a heavy achievement, stagger champion challenge is really a challenging strats yeah....

I want to ask some fair follow-up questions here:

1) Why would you even consider playing a Sorc in a ranged setup when you can have 3 Squigs destroying a target even more efficiently and have 0 risk of having healdebuff removed as you overstack ailments?
2) Why would you consider playing a BW in a ranged setup and give away the target you're picking by applying Boiling Blood on it, when you could silently fester a target down with 3 SWs?
3) And finally, why would you justify a nerf to a class that was already unjustified to begin with?

[heybaws]

It's amazing how people here moved from "this nerf is unjust" to "why not nerf X instead?". Almost like everyone understands that sacrifice to crying god who shall not be named had to be made somehow, and you just keep looking for alternatives to butcher on a class whos last time to shine was like 5 years ago in wb with 9 target aoe and uncapped morale damage